Russian, Canadian, Norwegian log house.

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  • Опубликована: 10 окт 2011, 15:06
  • Автор: expert
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expert
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Тема: Re: Russian, Canadian, Norwegian log house.
Yeahh, why are you talking adout subtleties?.So, you should tell about details, and name them. Or, then, you just like a boy, who knows the secret, but nobody can say it. Then I’ll tell it. It is rather simple. The upper beam with a trapezoidal cup reduced drying, and the angles of slope slightly expanded outward, the width of the cup along the beam remains the same. The lower beam is also reduced on the transverse opening angle of the cheek doesn't change on the face of it. The upper beam under its own weight (we will consider the upper timber wall) and the weight of the roof and a snow is placed on the notch of the lower log. How can get it?
The longitudinal groove with a sample of 6% can go onto the lower sliding on its side surfaces or an indentation.
But the protruding ends prevent it, there is no pressure on them by the roof or the snow, there is only a dead weight. Therefore, the "residue" is hem on the bottom or make a higher notch. If you do not do it, you will risk that the ends will be just cracked, because the bowl is cut more than a half.
And now, a mathematical model for an ideal cylinder, made in a graphical editor. I took three cases where are the logs of the same diameter and different. In all cases, with a drying and a shrinkage remain cracks on the web.... They are thin, I don’t argue. But a tangential shrinkage is greater than a radial shrinkage. The angle of the cheeks of lower timber will be slightly wrapped inside, and the cracks will be a little bigger. The tensile strength of wood is 150 kg/cm2. Assume that the contact of beams is 10 * 10 = 100 cm2, then, to happen the irreversible collapse (as it shows the mathematical model) It is needed a force of 15 tons, and it is only for a one corner.
:D
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constructor
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Тема: Re: Russian, Canadian, Norwegian log house.
It is equally to the nip of the home in Moskow region which size is 10*10 m. The whole house, not a single angle.
Anyway, let’s back from the mathematics to the earth and assume that everething is not ideal in these angle joints and there is no wrinkle there, and there is just a slidingg of surfaces. The idea of a log home is great, we can not deny it. But to produce such log house it’s necessary to keep in mind the size of the longitudinal groove, do not make it too big or small. Someone like the Canadian have already tired to make it M-shaped, and that is true. So, there are still two positions of the gap size in a cup and in a "residue". The size is not fabricated. And now, just think about who will be cut a frame?. Do we have every carpenter with a high education?. They don’t know any cracks. They will not remember the gap "in the residue". Well, it’s okay, and we will teach them. They will do a perfect work, but some seams in the corner will still open. Very thin, but passing a draught. And how do they seal?. There are special products. How much will it cost? I don’t know.
Let’s draw up balance. The issue was whether the Russian, the Canadian or the Norwegian log cabin was the best. For equal initial conditions: a saw work, our raw wood.
In our log house we have a cheap labor which does not require an additional training, the cracks that are easily caulked, a technology perfected for centuries. The log facing the street is round.
In the Canadian log house: a high skilled labor therefore not cheap, undeveloped technology for years (try to publish here a photo of 10 year old log house), the cracks which is not clear to insulate with, wrench flats (cheeks, notches etc.) substituted the rain (and there is an open sapwood, substituted to rotting and spreading infection to the hear).
As for me, I will solve the problem with cracks in the corners differently. I would not bother the initial moisture content and a shrinkage. I think, here, on the inside cheek of the lower log it is necessary to saw a tenon from the hump to the longitudinal groove of the other (transverse) beam and attach a seal. The seams are still fine, they don’t spoil the appearance. Well, The thought occurred to me.
:geek:
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expert
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Тема: Re: Russian, Canadian, Norwegian log house.
Unfortunately, you are wrong, there is a gap in the Russian and the Canadian cup and it does not solve the problems associated with a shrinkage.
But nobody is trying to hurt you and the Canadian cutting.
Simply, the argument that you bring in its defense (the shrink gap) - does not solve the problem of cracks in the bowl.

By shrinkage a reducing of the cup size occur at a height, the angle between the surfaces increases.
On the underlying log - in section, the angle between the cheeks, on the contrary, decreases.
The shrinkage, which is proportional to the magnitude of shrinkage on the top of the saddle - is insufficient to compensate larger values of shrinkage on the diameter of logs.
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constructor
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Тема: Re: Russian, Canadian, Norwegian log house.
Expert.. the pattern of shrinkage I can even result by example of two boards of different widths.
Two boards of 100mm and 200mm – the shrinkage is proportional to its width.
That is, the trimming from the planks of 200 mm has a clearance between them more than from the boards of 100mm. Accordingly, and the bowl, too, based on a trapeze by the shrinkage will be gaps. But there is another moment of cutting, the bowls are made with a notch, as well as a longitudinal groove. And the whole mass of logs here plays the role of squeezing in the corner joints. But in consideration of its shrinkage, it’s necessary to produce the cutting of dry logs, although it is a harder work.

:mrgreen:
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expert
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Тема: Re: Russian, Canadian, Norwegian log house.
Exactly. The main difficulty is just to properly calculate and execute these gaps (in cups – a variable height, and between crowns).
Very few people can do it.

;)
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buldozer
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Тема: Re: Russian, Canadian, Norwegian log house.
The Russian method in my opinion has no right to exist. In view of its adaptability. To build a wooden house on the Russian technology, ie the cup repeats the radius of the lower log (I'm not talking about when the cup is in the bottom beam), it means the appearance of holes in the corners.
The wood acts so unpredictably, and in the Russian version it is not even provided a process of shrinkage.
I'm hold an interest in the Canadian method. I looked at many sites about the wooden houses and it seems to me that the most competent site about log homes is the site of the firm “Northhouse”, it has a lot of 3D and everything is shown in diagrams.
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baltazar
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Тема: Re: Russian, Canadian, Norwegian log house.
I am absolutely convinced that the Russian cup has no right to exist. In view of its adaptability. You are all know that the timber during a drying process decreases in a diameter. Each timber by drying, behaves differently. The Canadian technology as opposed to the Russian technology involves a change of wood. In general, in Canada, this method is called Russian.
If we are speaking about how to build correctly the wooden house, so, the ground floor should be chopped (whether from logs or a mast) and the first floor should be wireframe, because the first floor has a bad shrinkage.
The Russian method is the most simplified and time-consuming method of manufacturing of the cup. I like the Canadian, and the Norwegian. We are Russians, believe, that we have deep roots in this building and a great experience. Today, only in St. Petersburg carpenters owned a Canadian technology and from St. Petersburg it begins to spread across Russia.
I apologize if I hurt someone for my categoricity.
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expert
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Тема: Re: Russian, Canadian, Norwegian log house.
The story is instructive!
My neighbors put a wooden house in winter on a moss, then they covered roof in spring, in autumn without caulking they decided to do the inside part, i.e to trim walls with boards. Then one old man advised to live one winter without finishing in order to see where would be a white frost. Otherwise the frame will rot with a drywall.
The moral is, any angle even the Russian, even the Canadian or the Norwegian needs caulking, and the warmer the better one, but denser corners are very bad caulked.
Therefore, let it be the Russian log house with caulking.
Yes, and the end of the story... they didn’t hear and two years later they take off this cardboard with wallpapers to caulk the frame!
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Summer
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Тема: Re: Russian, Canadian, Norwegian log house.
On the subject of a dry forest everything is correct. The most high-quality frame will be from a dry forest. It is dried naturally (if it’s round) or in a camera (if it is a mast). Of course, the price increases. But no one in Canada or Norway build houses from a raw wood. There isn’t such wood in the market. We have, of course, 90% of customers who are looking for a cheaper price. And this price range can be expanded so.
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bill
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Тема: Re: Russian, Canadian, Norwegian log house.
The thin wood without a least is the cheapest. It’s only for the log house 6x6. An entrepreneur in the Novgorod region, who hired a number of unskilled workers, begins to understand that there is such a thing as a quality.
A small construction company with its own crane has already begun to employ qualified carpenters and control a quality. But it will not dry for lack of floating funds.
A truly professional firms are not existed. So, for a building of a log house under a canopy, but not in the open air (there is a sense to build a house from a dry wood in the open air) there are only 3 or 4 companies. The price level is different.

:roll:
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buldozer
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Тема: Re: Russian, Canadian, Norwegian log house.
Of course, this is a beautifully decorated home. The carving is remarkable. A decoration with a soul. Only, when I said that "the Russian cup had no right to exist", I do not mean our traditions, and had in mind a current sit. We must build such beautiful homes, but, only with modern technologies. Why you should build a wooden house with the Russian cup if you knows in advance that there will be gaps every other year?

A birthplace of Santa Claus?I know it badly. I know that people build wooden houses and they are in great demand. It seems even they were sent to India.
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baltazar
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Тема: Re: Russian, Canadian, Norwegian log house.
And why they are needed for, these companies? Order a work in a competent individual. He will do everything for you.

A competent individual can be cheaper.There isn’t such statistics. We need to do a survey of those who built a log cabin on the foundation by themselfs. How much is a 1 square meter. what this amount includes. The cost of a wood work, a crane, a cleaning, etc. If a competent individual agrees to work without a crane, it is no longer a competent one. As far as I know all experienced carpenters with dislocating backs, or their elders.
We are all want to build a log house for the minimal money with the highest quality. You can require it with a company. And with the individual? And starting to work with a private owner nobody knows in advance what it would be a cost for a construction. And will he finalize to the end if you begin caviling at his work.
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constructor
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Тема: Re: Russian, Canadian, Norwegian log house.
Dear, Canadian, you are probably a master of your craft, but ...
According to you, if a carpenter hasn’t a scratched back, he is not experienced? That is, I have to bypass him party?
A quality Score and a literacy is the presence of a crane?
You are probably the first person on the forum, which claims that the firm will build (as opposed to the individual) for less money than a private owner.
Well, for the manufacturability. I think that neither Russian nor Canadian or Norwegian log cabins (real log cabins) are not construction methods nowadays. The millde log is manufacturable. The frame is manufacturable. With regard to the manual harvesting (regardless of national circumstances) - it is becoming more and more expensive due to the fact that it can not be imprisoned under any technology. I am confident this trend will only continue. Yours,constructor.. 8-)
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buldozer
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Тема: Re: Russian, Canadian, Norwegian log house.
Good afternoon.
As for the crane. Its absence from my experience is directly related to a quality, unnecessarily, even with good skills you can not sitting on the wooden house in an awkward position saw a good cup or a groove. And another deal when you take off this log to the ground and there fully process it. And without a crane who will lift and pick up each log (for the sake of convenience) ?
With regard to those who are cheaper to build, I don’t accept a reproach. I built for myself two log houses. I have an experience. The first one as all I began hiring a team of carpenters, then I bought a mast, found roofers, decorators. etc. I can say it's not so easy. The second one I built by another company. All costs are written. Only, now it is difficult to compare with current prices. Then was another value of $, and prices too. It depends on the quality and the appearance you want. A beautifuk thing is not CHEAP . If we compare machines, Lada is the ideal car for the price, but only who does dream about it?
Yes, a handmade work is expensive. But what a beauty!. Now I will build another guest house from the mast, under the earthen roof, with the aom of the firm.
You can argue who is cheaper or more expensive. But you will have problems with the firm, and after a private owner to think how to address deficiencies.
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bill
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Тема: Re: Russian, Canadian, Norwegian log house.
The use of the crane above all, improves the performance of
logging, and thereby reduces the wages for cane-cutters. The share of the crane
has already deposited in the profits of the firm (if the firm has its own crane).
Another thing, if we are talking about the quality of execution of cutting, it is another matter. There are "firms" with their cranes cut so
horribly out of hand that you can cry. What does it mean?
That it's not so easy to find specialists who work with the soul.
The quality of work is the thing that the master spends on its time.
To be more precise, a quality work can not be cheap. (After all, someone likes a Lada. But the quality
of Mercedes and Lada is different).
There is another category – an exclusive. It's individual.
There is a beauty and a quality, and a Russian scale. Where its price is threshold
virtually inaccessible to the mass citizen. And the decline
its price will decrease the most exclusive product.
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buldozer
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Тема: Re: Russian, Canadian, Norwegian log house.
as I understand we are not talking about the price but about the quality and manufacturing methods.
A crane is one of the components of the quality. A self-respecting carpenter, someone who professionally cuts, will not work without a crane, and it would not cheaper for you. Either it will require unskilled labor, that will carry the logs. Take the beam of the diameter of 28cm-36cm on the second floor, twist it, partition and saw it. How much you will saw? What then is the quality? How much time it will build the frame?
A skilled carpenter select wood during a construction, the availability of tools, the accommodation, all depends on the quality. Or do you think, to save you money they need to carry logs on their back? And if they agree, then most likely its from a lack of money, or they are not specialists.

I don’t mean log houses of 4-5 walls that are made in any village. Everything is simple, the diameter of 18cm, unbarked, sawn, without gables and is put up for sale. It sucks. And in this case, the type of cup can not be considered. The mentality of those who buy these cabins, it's an old Lada, and a toilet like a hole on the street. None, is paying attention on such homes.
Now, the level is not the same. Everyone wants a normal spacious home, improvements, a heating and a water etc. Let it is not big, but beautiful, well-made and comfortable house, or dacha. With the improvements approaching to the city.
So, if we are talking about the technology, then only Canadian and Norwegian technology has the same principle. Ideally, a dry forest. A carpenter must be only professional (if you can identify). And don’t confuse a manufacturability (from the word technology) and a technical processing etc.
Get off the hole, it is cold and uncomfortable. It is better to slightly delay the building for collecting money and building a good house. To approaching to it, it was nice, and you not ashamed of the house that you built in your life.
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Summer
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Тема: Re: Russian, Canadian, Norwegian log house.
:lol: - I have a vague suspicion that buldozer has recently acquired its own crane, its bursting with happiness, he can’t openly share the joy, that decided to chose such strange way. No offense. nice to see in our gloomy, good times, so much emotion and passion. Good luck!
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constructor
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Тема: Re: Russian, Canadian, Norwegian log house.
Dear, buldozer, your same word - "beautiful is not CHEAP" is talking about values and relationships that I have just explained the essence of your words spoken.
And now about the crane.
Yes, the crane - it is a necessity in a hard work. And I have used a long time (and not just me) the construction of log houses with the crane, but I'm not talking to customers, that with the crane my frame house will be more beautiful and will have a higher quality than the houses built without cranes. So, what does it matter to you? if he wants to get a quality product for its money. In the work, using a crane I put the emphasis on the creation of optimal conditions for cutters, because I quite appreciate their professionalism, and such experts do not “roll on the road”. And, I know what does it mean to work with a diameter of 35-45cm.
The quality of cutting depends on the professionalism and the performance and its salary.

----------
Now, about our mentality.
First of all, our main mass of people - it's a poverty, and its main problem is a valid today life. I'm not talking about the absolute poverty, for there one step closer to the misery. But there is still the subjective poverty, which is determined on the basis of own estimates of a human physical status, its ability to make ends, to pay for housing, medicine and education. Do you consider it? For them, will you be able to construct a normal spacious home? You forget about all, except I WANT and I CAN. ... And it has not given to everyone.

And you are right that a milled log in contrast to manual cutting is a technological product, the result is done not by hands, but a modern technology (machines).
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buldozer
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Тема: Re: Russian, Canadian, Norwegian log house.
Why do you think about the crane? I'm just a hint of its necessity on the construction of a log house on the foundation, and the costs associated with it, if you hire a carpenter yourself. If the construction company hasn’t him, then I wii never order a house there. The crane certainly did not affect the beauty of the home, it affects the quality. (Tired of it).
And on the beauty, dear constructor, affects the Customer, which project he will order, and you will do it. And the beauty of the house.only depend on the imagination of the customer and his purse. You can only suggest as much as possible.
I understand that Expert, constructer are interested in maintaining this forum. There was no time to read all your forum, but on page 19 I liked the statement that «The main advantage of Canadian's home is its architectural developmental work, the ability to apply itself. And, accordingly, the main drawback of the Russian house was the architectural modesty".
And I have a question for Expert on this same page-image, is it your job?
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expert
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Тема: Re: Russian, Canadian, Norwegian log house.
I can not agree with you, because our architectural modesty is a consequence of standard and low-cost projects. But there is still a private architecture, and other projects are the benchmark of the genre. They do not advertise because they are original projects as the intellectual property.
In Canada, it is unlikely to have reached such perfection on the beauty of wooden architecture, as we have in Russia (we are talking about the architecture, and, not the houses).
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