Russian, Canadian, Norwegian log house.

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  • Опубликована: 10 окт 2011, 15:06
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buldozer
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Тема: Re: Russian, Canadian, Norwegian log house.
Maybe we think about various things, and so talking about? In my understanding the wood core is a part of the tree in the middle which has a diameter of 5-20cm depending on the diameter and the rest is a sapwood. And if you think that the sapwood is only 1cm from the edge, so it is virtually removed when shaving it, I do not take it into account.
In addition, we do not make the helve from needles and the shoots only, and we do not do it from a log or a timber removing too much, but we find a young tree in the forest with a thin, straight and long barrel. Then we dry it and then, stick it of course, before unbarking and sanding in order it would be easier for hands. By the way use only a fir, at least for us, because it is easier and the fortress is better then of a birch.
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bill
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Тема: Re: Russian, Canadian, Norwegian log house.
The log "Life" continues, of course, till its death (the banality I said). I am a happy owner of a private house of the Russian felling (It is small only one room 6x6, a Dutch oven). He was more than a hundred years (a documentary data is 108, but according to words of an older people, the log carcass was transported from the village So, its age is, perhaps even more), It is now in a dying condition. It has already eaten by the bark beetle to the last crown. I once was a full stuipid about log cabins – when buyng I was looking incorrectly, the owners, especially were vacuuming everything. I found a sawdust from the bark beetle only two weeks later...

Sorry for the digression, with all this, I quite like the home. I made permanent measurements and realized for myself that the log cabin constantly changes the frame size (a small range), depending on weather conditions.

An equilibrium moisture content in my area (and specifically, on my site) is 18.7-19%. You can install it by studying the old log-house appliances.
And your "Canadian" cabin will dry in your area at this moisture content.
How much time does it take it? It depends on the initial moisture content of a log house, and the weather conditions. I am sure that at least three years.

I talk with a customer of my first log cabin of the Canadian cutting (I worked in a fairly well-known Internet company - it was the first commercial log cabin of the Canadian felling) - from the moment of the installation (a spring 2008), the processes had stabilized in the middle of 2009 - he began a fully practical use. But this is a south of Russia – the Rostov region.
The climate is presenting. A bath. The beam is 30-32 cm.Two floors.
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buldozer
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Тема: Re: Russian, Canadian, Norwegian log house.
Thanks for the answer
My carcass was chopped by the builder who was from a well-known company in Irkutsk, whose leader was trained in the very first St. Petersburg’s frame with the Canadian notch.... That is a a very distant relative, second cousin twice removed. But I'm happy except for a few things that were clear to me initially but still remain unpleasant. Yes, the humidity in the house on the first floor now is 13%, if we haven’t lived there for a week. That is, do not use a water at all. I have recently came, and I saw this figure and realized that most of the shrinkage of the first floor was over.
My main problem is that the right side as you face the house consists of two parts, outside and inside. The internal as I understand was completely dried but the outside unfortunately not yet. By this assumption, I came under the inspection of the corner of the house from the street, that is, from the porch and from the house.
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bill
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Тема: Re: Russian, Canadian, Norwegian log house.
What is visible from the porch is firmly in the nocth but if you look at this angle but from the house can be seen that the logs are hanging, and that someting prevents them the fall, and it is in this corner. Here, I’am sitting and thinking how much time does it take to dry this outer wall and the corner will go to its place. It’s funny to say, but during the recent heavy frost this angle a little bit betrayed a coolness, but all other walls and corners were warm. I can’t find fault. And at the temperature of 36 below zero at my house there were about 23 or 25.... Now, I can not remember, I could be wrong, but it was warm. So, the baby was sitting bare butt on the floor and playing the machine and certainly was not cold.
So, my current "claims" to the notches rather aesthetic than utilitarian. And, I have som pics in the album here.
And I have even the theme in this section.
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expert
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Тема: Re: Russian, Canadian, Norwegian log house.
Nice photos you have turned.
A ready-illustrated guide to an individual builder. :mrgreen:
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Summer
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Тема: Re: Russian, Canadian, Norwegian log house.
I wonder.. Maybe you will be able to explain clearly where the brink of the "Canadian”? It’s a Russian style, and where you can clearly say that it is the “ Canadian”!? Hopefully, you rely not only on your theoretical knowledge. Will you denounce to the mass how we can get in a manual work a perfect match with the log and the groove? I want to learn the Russian style)). For example, the angular clearance takes place at all times.
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expert
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Тема: Re: Russian, Canadian, Norwegian log house.
I'll just say that you are confusing the gap in terms of еру undercut, and the gap in the groove (a crown), ie the log at the time of the cutting hangs in the truest sense of the word on the plates.
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constructor
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Тема: Re: Russian, Canadian, Norwegian log house.
Yes .. Here we have to understand..
In the practiced way you cut the groove in a line. The log is lying along the entire length of the groove on the edge, the corners of the plane. Am I Canadian?
Or should I trim the log with the Canadian-style on the corners?
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bill
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Тема: Re: Russian, Canadian, Norwegian log house.
What’s a demagoguery here!. If the plates were made with notches, but the grooves fit tightly it's not the Canadian cutting, but if in the same log house to make some slits, then it is the "Canadian technology". There is an angle joint on the Canadian, Finnish, Norwegian and etc. tehnologies. There is all! And all the rest is a dust in the eyes of customers. I wanted to know the answer to the question why in the Russian cutting you don’t have to hang the corners? But with the Canadian you have to do it!
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buldozer
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Тема: Re: Russian, Canadian, Norwegian log house.
I quite clearly explained (without using the term "the undercut") - the brink is taking place in one single site - in the gap between the edge of the slot (where you draw the line of laying) and the underlying log (a place that will form the upper edge of the groove). This technology is called the ‘overscribing’ or the “underscribing” depending on the fact how this method of clearance is formed at the laying out. Both ways I know very well and not once used. I think the more correct is the underscribing. How and why is beyond the scope of this discussion.

I've never hacked by the Russian felling (there was no place to learn at the time) and I have nothing to say about the technology of the right selection of cups and grooves.


About the inconsistencies of slots, etc. - (luckily, we have them a lot) I examined many old chopped houses, where there was a possibility (the abandoned houses) I cut, assorted .. In particular, I investigated my house. So, the cutting quality is definitely different, but in most cases, good enough that, when considering the cut, the gap between the logs is uniform and does not exceed 5-7 mm, full ot hardened moss. The moss is a substance similar to fiberboard. It breaks by chunks. So, the wall is nearly a solid mass.

Why this is not possible now, I do not know. I don’t plan to master the Russian cutting, it is impossible to be an expert in everything. In the Russian notch there are prestigious and sophisticated people who have recovered the technology and are engaged in a development and a further study. If desired, they can be easily find on the Internet.
That is true. Because of the "hanging" on the cups, on the cheeks of the lower beam is formed a characteristic impressed furrow. It appears at once, it is perfectly visible during the disassembly of the framework. If there is no furrow, the "Canadian" cutting is out of the question. I do not know how to post images here.
At a very high degree of professionalism of carpenters when the clearances is calculated very accurately, the furrow disappears during the demolition and the temporary storage of a log house due to the elasticity of wood. My friend Yuri Miliy obtains such results. It is clear as a daylight that without the use of the moisture gauge and calculations, such result can not be achieved.
I do not like that word, but you have to " undercut" . If the log at the time of cutting is tight, it is not the “Canadian".
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buldozer
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Тема: Re: Russian, Canadian, Norwegian log house.
Is it a demagoguery?
A demagoguery... :arrow:
The substitution of a thesis is that the arguer is saying its proof under the assumption that the opponent has made a (usually weak or wrong) statement creating in an inattentive audience (and sometimes on your opponent), the feeling that he has really made such statement.

Such kind of demagoguery is divorced here. If an item was made with certain characteristics, but a very important detail tightly fitted (well) this is not a modern technology, and if in this same subject in the very important detail make some slits (paraphrased in the negative sense - the gaps) (the internal representations of the customer's quality) - then it is not a "technology" (in Russian, removal of a particular term in quotes indicates a pejorative attitude to the subject of the speaker). It is obtained
a Vicious circle.
The argument can be proved based on the thesis, which is taken as an absolute and does not require a justification truth, and the basic thesis in fact is the same argument, expressed in other words.
There is a combination of objects in the corners of the (listing of national technologies using the corner joints of subjects as a part of the whole), etc. tehnologies. That's it!
ad personam - includes a belittling of an opponent in the general case consists of pointing out the facts that characterize opponent himself, but not relevant to his argument. This tactic leads to the erroneous logic, replacing the reasoning by judgments about the opponent, not related to the presented arguments.
But everything else is a dust into the eyes of the customer (which has already tossed a negative message that does not coincide with the generally accepted notions of a quality. It’s a clear example that the method of the analogy is not a valid method of proof)
I always wanted to know the answer to the question why in the Russian cutting the corners haven’t to be undercut?
"There are many things in this world, Horatio, that wise men haven't dreamed" © Hamlet.
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baltazar
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Тема: Re: Russian, Canadian, Norwegian log house.
If you didn’t cut, so don’t try!.
Except a well-defined gap, there is one more (I think it's important) point to the groove of the "Canadian" felling.
I watched it not once, not twice, but what is the essence? After a while not only the timber shrinks diametrically, but also the geometry of the groove changes, this is connected to the high tangential shrinkage. And to minimize somehow this disadvantage, the question arises- how to pick a right diameter of logs of the Canadian cutting. The optimal width of the groove is one-third of the diameter of the beam, ie if you have the groove of 100mm, then take the diameter from 300mm. A year ago I cut down a small bath-house of the "Canadian" notch. Knowing that usually there is a temperature difference in the bath, therefore, I used this notch (who has a bath of the Russian notch, knows why). My biggest mistake was that the groove was made at 100-120mm of 220-250mm logs. It was possible to use 70-80mm (well you will not live there). Now, with the consequence of a heat and a desiccation, the caulking is inevitable. This suggests that the minimum diameter for the "Canadian" notch is 300mm or more. And with the groove of 100 mm, I don’t think it contributes to a greater heat loss. I have been to those houses, and there was heat enough, though I didn’t test these "notorious cold bridges".
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Summer
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Тема: Re: Russian, Canadian, Norwegian log house.
As far as I understand the Canadian notch, the gap is not formed in the groove, but it formed itself, depending on how much the timber was hang in the corner, in a so-called "cup". If there is no such hang there, it will be messy, even if there is a gap in the slot, as it can be done "artificially".
In addition, there is no difficulty to learn (or unlearn) from the Canadian notch to the Russian notch, and to any other. All the more you know the Norwegian notch? If so, then it is much harder than the "Russian bowl", at least I think so, because I learned this business from our Russian home, and about the Canadian and the Norwegian notch, I learned from the Internet and tried. By the way, after reading your blog, I was inspired to study and test these technologies. But I do not think their way is better than ours with a notch, because if you cut correctly, there will be a good log house. The “Canadian” is fine, but it needs the notch, so our Russian men began doing it. In the Norwagian notch I like the notch, but it is made only of a half timber, but I don’t like it, because it cracks on the sunny side, as well as the timber of 150.
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baltazar
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Тема: Re: Russian, Canadian, Norwegian log house.
Then I don’t understand the Canadian cutting, if it is possible to trim inside, not with rounded corners, but with the straight corners, like a halving. But the "Russian" notch is simple and from a half timber it will be the same notch in the corner!
+100! .I always say that the groove should be 1\3 of the diameter, no more, but no one listens and doesn’t believe! Maybe your example will make you think about it! Especially, no matter what is the way of logging. If we stick to this size of the groove, so, after the shrinkage we will not have problems, that happen with the milled logs which have a groove 1\2-2\3, and to be more precise no gaps.
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buldozer
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Тема: Re: Russian, Canadian, Norwegian log house.
I am always very happy to the honest communication with people. And, especially, when they are not afraid to talk about their mistakes - this the experience that is invaluable to others.
It seems that we were going the same way (about the grooves)
There is no need to create in the Canadian notch to form the groove of a specified width. It is automatically generated by using a very simple principle: logs have natural irregularities and in the place of the large gap (it is easy to find it visually - we should stand at the side of a log house and look along the beams, which will trace) with the trace, make test lines on both sides of the future groove, when the distance between the lines will be 6.5 cm (offer for Russian conditions - 8 cm), to fix this solution of the line and draw the groove. When selecting the line, we must look at the length of the segment of the groove was of the minimum width, not longer than 30 cm along the beam, if it is obtained longer, it should be a little more extended.
Cups are drawn so - the gap of the groove for that particular timber can be done with a compass on a board, for example, take a ruler and to shrink it of some value, which can be calculated using simple calculations (such as the moisture of logs. the table of resizing sizes of the timber + "slightly" to the compensation of the elasticity of wood). Dilute the race for this REDUCED solution and draw the cups, and the log automatically will "take off" by this amount.

We must not forget that higher the crown, the lower the pressure on the logs, if you simply say, it is necessary to reduce the gap to 6-7 mm every three crowns.

There are many additional subtleties, and so simple beginning is enough for successful results.

As you can see, all the drawing solutions are based on the initial value of the optimal width of the groove - the longest line that separates the room from the street.
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buldozer
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Тема: Re: Russian, Canadian, Norwegian log house.
And what is the initial gap which you are doing? Even if it is 3cm, then after 5 rows it would be equal to a zero. What do you tell us? If it is done, then is done the same! It can be reduced, if at the beginning it is cut from the chopped thick logs, and then they become smaller in a diameter. And if the wood is matched roughly equal, then the clearance should be the same! Such gaps are known for Russians and they are made obligatory, if the log house is cut at once on a foundation of a moss (a hemp or a felt), otherwise there will be holes in the groove after drying. So, that Canadians have adopted it altering the corner.
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bill
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Тема: Re: Russian, Canadian, Norwegian log house.
Post your working pictures, please. I would like to see them. Everything you posted here is a real demagoguery (the set of oratorical and polemical techniques and tools to introduce the audience astray and persuade it to your side.)
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buldozer
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Тема: Re: Russian, Canadian, Norwegian log house.
That's right - there is the evidence that the customer has already become intellegent, reads the Internet sites)).
And is it necessary? To a God there are million ways, and they are all equivalent.
I have already know many people who use high-technologies of markings in the Russian notch. They are making very high quality grooves of a complex profile. Accordingly, you will caulk seriously just cups.
There is a cost reduction and a quality improvement!!.
Yes, I know their notch and even more say that I came to the seditious thoughts, that make it so complicated these days is not necessary.
Its appearance in the current form (with two pairs of cheeks and a spine) caused by the system layout – a half timber was at the heart of Norwagian system at the heart of the half timber there is the need to achieve a greater stability of the carcass to the damaging effects – the half timber has uncompensated forces of twisting because of the lack of a sapwood on each side. A fixing cup is needed you can’t fix the half timber by the groove as on the Russian notch.
A common line will not mark this cup, only the groove. The old carpenters successfully solved the problem of a descriptive geometry. The optimal intersection of two half timbers with the possibility of the fixation from twisting. There are cheeks, which are easy to mark with the basic tool - a ruler.
The spike was not explicit in the beginning there was a triangular mark.

Contrary to a popular belief about the purpose of the spike - a thermal notch - it performs the function which strengthens the structure. This is evident from its gradual transformation from an old cabin into a modern state. It is impossible to achieve the mechanical strength without spines on a half timber, which section had already weakened. It is called in Norwegian "laftehals" - literally – a “neck”. Ancestors did not call for no special reason. The neck that holds the head. If in the opinion of the old carpenters, the ship would carry out the thermal function, then it was named to the appropriate manner. A rationalism which the ancients had more than now.

So, with the modern marking devices you can remove the bottom pair of cheeks and get rid of the thorn. The fixing properties of such cup would be even higher. Here is my sedition. I believe that the Norwegian cup, which is now hard mastered (and there are many different and all of them are Norwegian) no more than a tribute to the tradition. It is necessary, of course, for those planning to enter the Scandinavian market, I do not set such goals.

Yeah, but I really like the half timber. Just like it!!.
So, I am fond of the Norwegian notch....

I came across this "the last argument of kings" with enviable regularity.
And I don’t hide that I began to approach the log house by the right side only 3.5 years ago. During this time, under my arm came out only several log cabins.
I will not here indulge in excuses. I have a blog where everything can be seen.
To immediately stop the possible further development of the theme in the ways unrelated to the essence of the topic in the forum, I will say, I'm just a man (a person), can not present anyone's commercial interests, do not sell log cabins, I just learn the information about characteristics of various systems of cuttings and I guide experiments for my own purposes, I want to build a house, which would be a good inheritance (I hope so) and for my grandchildren. Since the log houses I really liked, I hope this will be my profession, it is very pleasant to grow old with it...
If you bother to scroll the page, which shows the quote above, you found there something else:

Instead of proving the truth of your position and refuting the arguments of the opponent, a demagogue may apply to the receive ad hominem - not to criticize the arguments, but the identity of the opponent, trying to convince viewers that the opponent is a bad, unworthy, not versed in the question, biased or hypocritical person.
What can say the man without a residence permit about the architecture? (M. Zhvanetsky)
My first Canadian log house, which clearly resembles the architecture of a barn, has no cracks in the corners and the gaps in the grooves are completely closed, although there are obvious flaws in the notch (a customer honestly say this, and I honestly broadcast it), but, thanks God, it did not affect the other, more important qualities of a consumer, and the owner speaks about it too... and I' am generally satisfied.
What does the number of log houses have to do with the quality?
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baltazar
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Тема: Re: Russian, Canadian, Norwegian log house.
Yes, I am telling everything!
3 cm – it is numerous, but even if so, over three crowns it will be - 2.4 cm, over six - 1.8, and so on. Yes, in the upper crowns it will be quite small. It's okay. Well, it will be 0.8, for example, at the top – that’s enough to prevent cracks in the plates...
The same gap can be done within a single crown - choose the largest gap between the logs, then make the line, it will be faster, but it will take a little more of a wood waste.
Oh, I understood how to post pics here...

Just I can’t do it because I have few messages.
I uploaded them here in the profile.
The last letter of the owner:
Once again, Good afternoon,
this photo from the phone, a bath 6 * 8, I can post more pics after the first sunshine days, to ennoble the house from the outside, I will begin this year as it dries, it is ready in a half now. We have already took bath, It’is cool!! no cracks,I really like it... BUT, sometimes there is a bawdy cutting - not neatly! but in general I got what I wanted! Sincerely, Michael"
However, for some reason I don’t feel ashamed...
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constructor
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Тема: Re: Russian, Canadian, Norwegian log house.
You are saying a whole crap. If you do not sell log houses, what kind of customers do you have that generally satisfied with the quality of your log cabin? So, tell me that you wanted to find a customer here and you began to exhibit your skills on display and nothing wrong with that becaus so many people here do it.
And the quality is directly related to the number of log houses. I had enough faults when I started to cut log cabins (ten years ago) and more the experience, less the flaws. And any theory without a practice is nothing but you look like you got a degree in bullshit on any forums.
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