log home wiring ideas

[bill]

Please, give an advice on how to do best the wiring.
The house is made of foam blocks and plastered inside, the floors of wood. At the moment, I want to insulate it from the inside and sheathe with clapboards. The wiring question what is the better to do in this situation, it is not desirable to do outside. Who can you advise on how to do the best? You can make concrete blocks and make it hidden, is this permitted?
For certain things and a work there is a certain consumable. To try something cheaper or to combine is a compromise. In this context - a compromise with fire regulations. You can say this or not if I came and saw this initiative. PS. There are two ways. One thing is an external wiring with the passage of combustible construction in a metal pipe, so we do everything ourselves.
And there is a hidden wiring in a metal pipe seen as a man in his time made the house with a thick copper pipe the same output. There is a hose 76 rubles/ m. This is a special product. In all other cases there is a guaranteed issue.

[buldozer]

What if I laid in metal plastic? so, what? Everything will burn? or what kind of scenario of the Apocalypse? I am just wondering, where a common sense is hiding beyond the indifferent building recommendations. It is in fact the basis of everything, and not a statement.
I think that even if we take, for example, the NYM and pave it bluntly in the wall, in a mineral wool or PPS, pass it through the front. This is how it should bask \ spark that would be something on fire?
I observed in the country side for five minutes of a short circuit in the old copper wire in the proper position to the painted ceiling. As in the movie, sparks, a smoke shell tries to burn, a copper almost melts and nothing. I am so tired and turned off the machines (which, incidentally, did not work) 16 A for standard panels with a counter. The question is surely not that the cable will light up from the heat. To prevent this, put a competent defense. The issue is that the production of works you can accidentally punch this cable in the wall with a nail or a drill under the load. And here the surrounding structures can ignite. And a murine factor has not been canceled. That's why the EMP and a metal pipe. And if, according to common sense, as I think a metal hose will suffice. But this is what I think and some other friends. But there are people for whom a common sense is nothing until it is approved by a great guy, and on the contrary the paper is everything, even if it is contrary to a common sense.

[Summer]

I have a question to experts.
The walls are wood, a paneling lining.
On metal pipes I have already decided and I will cause the wiring in the tubes. But I still want to do some retreat:
1. I absolutely do not like the meta junction box, I want to put a plastic one, but not directly on a piece of lumber but through a gypsum plasterboard.
Secondly, if there are problems with the regulatory authorities to cover up the whole cavity of the box with a plaster along with the wires and connections.
2. At least I want to wire from the switch boxes (there will not be a short circuit, only a lamp lights).

[expert]

1. Usually, the ignition begins with electrical boxes. If you have three wires (i.e. you have a ground), all tubes must be connected to it, in case of a short circuit (due to insulation failure or a fire) a phase (zero) a pipe, a security device will work. And installing plastic boxes you rip a structure + in a violation of the insolation in the same box a security device will not operate, so long until there is a circuit between the wires, and it could happen as the box is melted and everything will be on an open flame.
2. Personally, I look at a metal sleeve like at the pipe.
Could you tell me please how to do the wiring in a wooden house? The wooden walls are upholstered with a wooden crate (shingles), which is scheduled to be applied to the plaster (a plaster or another material until the reserve is defined). A wire PPV is available (copper) with a section of 2.5 squares. We plan in a metal pipe or a metal sleeve (a pack). What better boxes made of metal or plastic. Thanks in advance.

[constructor]

Good afternoon!
And how to do a good wiring in a wooden house, if the walls will be plastered? Before, how well as I remember, in the wooden house the wiring was fixed to the asbestos tape, and then everything was plastered.
Will I break the regulations on a fire safety; if I make a wiring (DMN or VVG) on this tape, and to plaster everything?
The house 8 x 9, the 1st floor.
groups:
a lighting 2 x 1, 5 automatic 10A
a kitchen outlet 3 x 2, 5 circuit breaker 16A
other outlets 3 x 2, 5 circuit breaker 16A
A separate grounding or a vanishing of the input (depending on how the electricity fail)
The wiring according state standards in combustible walls is made only in steel tubes with walls of a certain thickness, because even when not burning wire insulation fuses which could lead to the closure of wires in this case because "there is not a very good contact". A discharge glow (actually, electric), which temperature is up several thousand degrees. For which all of these "bumps" (which inflammable plastic that thin metal) as the paper (in the above picture is clearly visible). But to warm up to the ignition temperature of flammable materials 1/2 "pipe with a wall 2 mm require a lot of time (although it is not a certain fact).

[expert]

Install LED bulbs in our lamps. A wide selection in danimir.ru I also installed them in my house, but not because of heating but because of the energy efficiency. They are not virtually heated. They operate on 220 volts. Consumption 3W. 12V I would not advise as a wiring in a wooden house, because at a given voltage there is a quite different current (almost 20 times bigger), and the wiring doesn’t melt from the power but from the right of the large amounts of current. 12 V wiring should lay completely different coefficients choice section of the wire. LED low power, you can directly from 12 V to nourish.
3 W 12 V mean 250 mA. The sauna (a bath) is very good. You can buy individual LEDs in bulk.
(At a radio shack), to make holes in a bunk and to put individual LEDs.
You can create a very beautiful decorative light in the sauna with the help of ceiling lights under the shelves etc.
A cable (in a sauna / a bath) is used air one (PTL-250), it holds a long-term ambient temperature of 250 degrees.
Such wires are on sale at Radio Shack.
It is permissible for this cable 3 hours at an ambient temperature of 300 C. A purpose – they designed for a fixed installation onboard.

[expert]

As an option - air wires (PTL-250). They have one of the layers of insulation
- a braid of glass fibers. Not afraid of mastication (rats / mice, etc.). No need for any corrugation. "Wires are resistant to mechanical factors (sinusoidal vibration, a mechanical shock, and multiple single-acting, a linear acceleration or an acoustic noise), an abrasion, a salt (sea salt), a fog (without a wire screen), a fungi, atmospheres, special factors."
"The wires are heat resistant designed for a fixed installation onboard power supply of aircraft and an operation voltage is up to 250 VDC or AC frequency to 5000 Hz and a temperature 60 to 200 °C (wires from a tinned copper wire) or minus 60 to 250 °C (wires from a nickel-plated brass or a silver wire). Wires allow a one-time use within 3 hours at 300 ° C".
Why it is not a good option in a wooden house?
The ignition temperature of wood is about 220 ° C ,
but this one holds 300 ° C for a few hours and does not ignite. I took a cable VVGng-LS in my hands (honestly, I have never held it before) 3 x 2, 5 I am seriously thinking about the hidden wiring from the ceiling at least in the first floor. Moving away from the shield 12 lines, 6 on each side roughly. For 6 cables boxes no less than 40 x 40 mm. And this, even is not enough, because a bend radius not less than 7.5 diameters!
PUE7
7.1.36. In all buildings lines of a group network, laid from group, and residential floor plates to a general lighting, sockets and fixed electric receivers, should be performed three-wire lightning (phase - L, neutral - N and a protective - PE conductors).
SP31-110-2003
9.1 Group lighting lines can have one-, two-, and three-phase, depending on their length and a number of attached fixtures. In the two-and three-phase lines are prohibited the use of group fuses and single pole breakers. Single-phase lines should perform by three wires conductors.
Here are the current construction norms and codes, which clearly indicate the scope of Chapter 7 PUE, but none of these are valid, there are high buildings or administrative and sports structures.
There is 7.1.1 PUE 7, it stated: This chapter applies to electrical regulations dwellings listed in SNIP 2.08.01-89 "Residential buildings"; public buildings listed in SNIP 2.08.02-89 "Public buildings and structures" (except buildings and facilities listed in chapter 7.2), administrative and residential buildings listed in SNIP 2.09.-87, "Administrative and everyday buildings".
I have not sought to overturn three wires, I just want to understand. Then the owner attaches to the old house an extension and shield an additional line of lighting, PUE treats this as a reconstruction, it turns necessary to change all two wires system. Besides the absence of the third wire in a lighting line, secured by a normal automatic RCD is not catastrophic.

[buldozer]

This is not a reason. Certification (at this time - the entry into SRO) does not mean the quality of a design work. Just pay the money and work. Theoretically, the organization must meet certain requirements, but in practice this does not happen.
Reconciliation also guarantees nothing. We have a few networkers and competent professionals. Often they do not read the PUE (well, if looked through the sixth edition). They work on the pattern. From year to year. Try to ask them some requirements under the SEP and other legal documents and they are just eye popping. They will only say: "We have such requirements".
And if you have money / dating, then negotiate even not looking at. I carefully read, I generally try to carefully read in cause of my duties, and I treated it differently than you do, there is a direct reference to Chapter 7 which in this case is not appropriate, so I think 7.1.1 has a value.
Besides, the introduction says: Electrical Code requirements apply to all organizations, regardless of their form of ownership and a legal form, as well as individuals engaged in entrepreneurial activities without forming a legal entity. In other words, only for legal entities.

[bill]

About the seventh edition of SEP you haven’t probably never heard. Chapters 1.1, 1.2, 1.7, 6.1-6.5, 7.1, 7.2, 7.5, 7.6 were replaced in the seventh edition of PUE. Chapter 1.1.1 now looks like this:
Electrical Code (PUE) apply to newly built and reconstructed electrical AC and DC voltage up to 750 kV, including special installations discussed in a chapter 7 of these Regulations.
Special electrical device not described in a chapter 7 and it shall be governed by other regulations. Certain provisions of these rules may be used for such electrical installations in the extent to which they are to be executed and the working conditions are similar to electrical installations discussed in these regulations.
Requirements of these regulations should apply to existing electrical installations, if it increases the reliability of the installation, or if its modernization is aimed at ensuring the safety requirements.

[baltazar]

My house has an autonomous power from a wind turbine and other alternative energy devices.
A constant voltage of 12V. A total power consumption of the house is 150-300W, LED lamps.
I want to make a concealed wiring in the ceiling (GCR + 20 cm stone wool). Maximum current for lighting 0.5-0.7A.
Are there rules for such a flush?
Are any recommendations for its implementation?
I know that for 220V AC wiring for inflammable structures should perform in a metal tube or in a 10 mm solid wire.
But I have a low voltage of 12V. Besides, can we consider the FCL and a basalt wool "combustible construction"? A pass through a log can be done the tube, and then in a flame retardant wool even with the 50mm environment. Could this be the replacement of plaster?
I intend to use this variant. As a filler, a gypsum used for the electrical wiring. It is inexpensive and it quickly hardens.
You just need to figure out how to lift the cable inside the foam, plaster under it to drip. You can do this yourself using a gypsum.
In two steps. A first, position the cable inside the profile and then insulate. As a penetration through the wood (logs, ceiling beams for example) use segments of a flexible copper tubing from the water supply, the ends of which should fall immediately into the profile of GCR.
I believe that this method is practical, simple and meets the requirements for a concealed wiring in a wooden house, even within the combustible construction.
It is true, there will be a direct voltage 12 V for lighting and similar measures may be redundant.

[baltazar]

My house has an autonomous power from a wind turbine and other alternative energy devices.
A constant voltage of 12V. A total power consumption of the house is 150-300W, LED lamps.
I want to make a concealed wiring in the ceiling (GCR + 20 cm stone wool). Maximum current for lighting 0.5-0.7A.
Are there rules for such a flush?
Are any recommendations for its implementation?
I know that for 220V AC wiring for inflammable structures should perform in a metal tube or in a 10 mm solid wire.
But I have a low voltage of 12V. Besides, can we consider the FCL and a basalt wool "combustible construction"? A pass through a log can be done the tube, and then in a flame retardant wool even with the 50mm environment. Could this be the replacement of plaster?
I intend to use this variant. As a filler, a gypsum used for the electrical wiring. It is inexpensive and it quickly hardens.
You just need to figure out how to lift the cable inside the foam, plaster under it to drip. You can do this yourself using a gypsum.
In two steps. A first, position the cable blotches inside the profile to gypsum was on all sides, and then you paint over a solid. As penetration through wood (logs, ceiling beams for example) use segments flexible copper tubing from the water supply, the ends of which should fall immediately into the profile of the GCR.
I believe that this method is practical, simple, and meets the requirements for concealed wiring in a wooden house, even within the combustible construction.
It is true, I will direct voltage 12 V for lighting and similar measures may be redundant.

[bill]

To pass in combustible construction, in practice, a metal and a plastic are in use. But don’t break your head with it. If you'd like to have rules to ensure norms PB, so, it is elementary, chase the pipe on both sides, in the absence of air any combustion process is not possible ... The main thing if there is not a standard situation (a leakage of isolation or a hot wire) the site wiring was secured. Note that for 12-volt wiring from the same power light bulbs, the current in the wiring will be 18 times larger, so you have to make a wiring thicker, otherwise it will be a large voltage drop and the lights will hardly become heated. Usually, 12 volt wiring is made for an emergency lighting with bulbs that take a small power or LED lamps are in use with a capacity of 1-2 W.

[buldozer]

I've also encountered the same thing as you. I have a log house from glued beams, I’d like to have a hidden wiring. Now, I am thinking about it. There is one elegant solution; I mean a mineral insulated cable. Copper conductors insulated with a magnesium oxide once in a metal tube. i.e. the cable is non-flammable, as there is nothing to burn even when the insulation breakdown.
The solution is very interesting, but it is not without flaws. First, it is quite expensive (3-4 times if we compare with NYM), secondly, a mineral insulation must be protected from water, since it is hydrophobic. I haven’t figured yet how to deal with a second disaster. To treat all connections with a sealant?
In general, here's information on these cables. Maybe it will be useful for someone.
So, please help me, how to resolve the issue about sealing compounds if I dare raise wiring data cable?

[expert]

I'll tell you how we come to the matter of choice of wires. A clear practice. The first thing it must be a triple insulation. i.e. if we take for example the wire VVG it has a double insulation. So, the role of the third insulation can perform by a plastic flute (as it was correctly mentioned above, and in our experience, for some reason it is really loved by mice), a rigid PVC pipe, a metal pipe, metal tubes. Any version will do.
Distracted by the way about the self-extinguishing materials. Self-extinguishing means that when a short circuit or a breakdown of layers of insulation, the material will not burn. That's it. If you put a wire 1.5 sq. mm. and load it 10 kW. And the defense is 100A. Believe me, everything will perfectly flash. And it will burn. It is practically. One man was it. I'm not speaking about a theory and a methodology of testing. There is a fine wire NYM. It is loved by designers, lay off should not. Here it is just in the triple insulation, you can lie down directly on the wood. But there are a few problems. The question remains open with a mouse. Especially if you have low temperatures. After that, at the slightest shifting the insulation cracks. Since the wooden houses "breathe" for a whole life, it is a quite controversial option.
It turns out that as a practical matter, we consider two options:
1. A wire in a metal hose
2. A wire in a metal pipe
If you are not lazy and ground pipes or a hose both options are acceptable.
I want to say separately about Vago terminals. We tried to use them several times. Since the electrical laboratory have never accepted our house. We always insist that our work would have taken by the electrical laboratory. Not a lot of money, but the customer is sure. Even small faults like an unscrewed bolt in the socket are immediately seen (we are not hacks, but when we have hundreds of such compounds, of course, there is sometimes a couple of defaults). Always there is an increased resistance on the line. We changed the locks and everything was OK.

[Summer]

Maybe for some it's a piece of news, but a cable NYM - it is a foreign name for our ordinary VVGz). NYM has a little different colors. Therefore, no triple insulation or other wonderful properties - the usual cable with a PVC insulation, PVC jacket and PVC insulated wires between the fillings. Respectively, and the cons are the same as the conventional PVC cables have:
1. It freezes in the cold, which was mentioned above;
2. It does not like UV i.e. it is not suitable for the outdoor installation;
3. The isolation eventually becomes old ...

[bill]

Let me disagree with you. What do you think about the third insulation - this is the filling, which is used in cables VVGz.
According to certificates there is in general an unclear situation. The certificate shall state compliance of a cable to a particular standard. A construction is not written in the certificates.
Arguments about the price are all funny. You forgot a country where we live in? Our peoples like foreign names. Well, as just like, let them pay. In fact, a VVGzng is a complete analog of NYM. The difference is only in the colors of wires. I tell you exactly, because I work at the plant, which produces both types of cables. It does not matter, really, because it is just impossible to lay them in a wooden house.
I have a finished project, but I don’t know how to lay although I am a cable guy. I looked up characteristics VVGng-LS. A very good cable. But the price is not so. I am afraid (from my personal experience) the builders will still mount something cheaper. Hmm. The cable is good.

[expert]

Yeahh, it has been produced for 3 years. Only it is not still available for individuals in practice. A labor-intensive production process means a lot to us that we can not provide.
NYMng-LS, IMHO, is an useful thing for the average consumers, as different from the usual recipe NYM only by a plastic shell that has a less smoke from a fire. This is true in large buildings while installing cables, but it is not in this case of individual building. Arguments about "original gray" and tales of a greater thickness of insulation at a lower price on the conscience leave marketers of Northcabel.
Specifically, for a wooden house that now interests me in the first place, I would set priorities so (reliability in descending order):
1. KMZH (a good price and a mount convenience);
2. VVGng-FRLS (a price and an availability);
3. VVGng-LS = NYMng-LS (the availability is also in question, but it is still possible to find);
4. NYM, VVGzng, VVGng, VVGngP etc. (About the same cost and performance)
5. VVG, PVA AVVG, PPV, etc. (it is better not to use since cables are not self-extinguishing and penny savings can be bad).

[constructor]

Good afternoon. I can not read everything about wiring on this site, I can repeat, but how the reputable electricians will look to use instead of a metal tube inside the timber from the outlet box to a flexible connection of gas, that is, to connect corrugated stainless gas appliances. It seems like a pipe, and at the same time as a metal pipe bends. Since the thickness of the pipe wall by cutting the wires up to 2.5 square is not specified, then I think this hose can be used. Moreover, there is a connecting thread. The Code of Practice for design and construction.
SP 31-105-2002
"Design and construction of energy-efficient single-family houses with wooden frames".
(Approved by the Resolution of the Russian State Construction Committee on February 14, 2002
13.5. The wiring.
13.5.1 Wiring be arranged by passing cables (cables in a protective sheath) through a hollow or a filled space by a heater inside the walls and floors of the house, and through the holes in the wooden elements of the wall and ceiling as shown in Figure 13-9. Skipping these cables and wires through the construction of the house is allowed to organize without sleeves and tubes.
13.5.2 For electrical wiring should be used insulated wires in protective enclosures and cables sheathed in materials and a flame retardant.
If you need to pass, consult with them. IMHO if you do not need it you have a simple solution:
1. in plastic boxes on top (an open wiring)
2. A VVGng cable in a plastic corrugation (a hidden wiring)
3. a cable nym (a hidden wiring)
The main thing that machines were normal and cross section of wiring was sufficient.

[bill]

Hello! I have the same problem! I choose between the plastic flexi hose and a cable hose, as they are not combustible and electrically neutral. My familiar electrician doesn’t recommend to use a metal hose for a simple reason that it is an excellent electric conductor (well, it will not be warm). He said that if the wire was damaged, the whole house will be under the current because of a metal hose (not to mention a metal profile). So, for me, as for you, this topic is still open. A hidden wiring is not possible but the open one I do not like!
Check out this version: The wires in the cable channels (a thickness = FCL) from the ceiling. In this way the channel is "drowned" between the edge of the ceiling plasterboard. Going down (for sockets, etc.) between the sheets of plasterboard joints. Is it the open wiring? And, if you paint it, so it will be decorated unnoticed!

[bill]

With regards to frame houses you have written a lot.
SP 31-105-2002 was approved by the Resolution of Gosstroy on February 14, 2002 N 6. "13.5.1 Wiring should be arranged by passing cables (cables in a protective sheath) through hollows or filled spaces by the heater inside the walls and floors of the house, and through the holes in the wooden elements of the wall and ceiling as shown in a pic. 13-9. Skipping of these cables and passing through the structures of the house are allowed to organize without sleeves and tubes.
13.5.2 For electrical wiring insulated wires should be used in protective enclosures and cables sheathed in materials and a flame retardant. "
So, I have a similar dilemma, the thickness of a galvanized pipe disturbs me. There are retardants in the wiring but the price is horrible! For a stainless steel tube the sellers give a discount, it is very tempting or I am thinking about the option in the vertical walls, the pipe is galvanized to protect against the screws and so on, and the wiring in a stainless steel hose, and it all takes place in the insulation. I think it will be safely. What kind of opinions?