A "breathing" frame house

[buldozer]

I do not know about the rules, but in the apartment in the bedroom of 17 square meters we sleep together even in winter only with the balcony door to ventilate, otherwise (to me personally, and my husband are fine) thre is not enough air.
The house is in the bedroom of 25 square meters made a ventilation.

[Summer]

I think it's more a personal preference. For example, my son is sleeping in the apartment only at the open window, but still naked, and in the countryside he sleeps with the windows closed (the same temperature). And my mom is hot, even on the street in winter as for me, I'm always too cold, and my husband is trying to close any crack, or it blows.
There are necessary and sufficient conditions. It is necessary for healthy to sleep 5 sq.m / a person, but is it enough for a particular individual it is a question.!
Well, the norms are written in a minimum. 3 cubes per square meter is a Soviet minimum standard for premises at the rate of 20 sq. m of a total area per person. Hence, has taken a claim rate of 60 cubic meters per person per hour.
And these 60, by the way, are for a minimum activity. In workplaces free from a dust and a harmful is twice more. With the gyms more.
In Europe, realizing that with a ventilation, the energy is lost and this rate reduces to 30 cubes. BUT on the assumption of, subject to much more expensive ventilation systems. Why 30 and not 15?. Because the air passes by the nose. Nowhere it does not go.

[baltazar]

The standards of square at the current minimum is 25 sq.m or 60 cubes per person and often it is much more. This volume allows to update the air from time to time with the boiler.
Only very unhealthy forces can cause a person to lock himself in a tiny room and say here that this proves the need for a ventilation. The air exchange between the different rooms.
A ventilation in summer, in case of some holiday should be installed. But to enjoy it in winter you should not. In the bathroom and the kitchen a forced ventilation should be with a simple (non-turbo) recovery. I think not constant its task is only to remove odors.
In stock we have the ability to use some breathable material. Nobody even tried to justify the need for the ventilation.
There is a State standart and some Finns were under lock.

[bill]

If through the walls or the windows goes such air that no one is stuffy even in a heating season, i.e. no need to open windows, a ventilation is not necessary, it is a sieve instead of walls. Because it is hardly possible to provide a self-regulation of the walls when there is a humidity and a temperature change, the content of CO2.
That's a forced-air ventilation, but with the filters, with the air conditioning, this is a deal. I'll do in a new apartment and I will do in a new country house. Incidentally, I have a very breathing farmhouse of 1908. Pure natural products. But it is very cold and the air blows but at a level that does not have to be aired. To tell the truth, it is impossible to live in.

[constructor]

Boilers need a separate flow according to the State Standard. Plus a separate ventilation. Where did you get the idea that the minimum ventilation rates take into account anything about boilers?. Not at all!!.
But common sense and calculation, is the argument. But only you can delatso knowledge of the subject. For example, fairly and accurately vyvestinormativnye indicators, and then prove that Hashem case the input data and other personally, you can change something. Only in this way.
Well, more precisely, you can do a long experiment, as long as we do not have a strict acceptance of private homes. But I don’t strongly recommend to consider such results.
In the State Standard a tremendous experience is written with a blood and tears.

[baltazar]

Now, I'll incur the wrath of everyone around. A man through the skin gets 3% oxygen in the body. It seems to be little, but the artists, athletes and the people who have to deal with the impermeable clothing are forbidden to close all the skin (or a very large percentage of it) in order to have access to the air. Why not?. The lack of "breathing skin" can lead to very serious consequences and even to a death. (A nod to the fans of breathing buildings).
Why does it happen?. Because it is very hard to ensure that the entire thickness of skin with the oxygen (and a carbon dioxide output) only through the lungs. In addition, from a skin surface it is necessary an evaporation (a thermoregulation). If to get someone in tight clothes or to cover with a makeup, an oil, the body loses its ability to cool and to exchange a carbon dioxide and an oxygen with the surrounding world.
Now, about the house. Tell me, please, do you need to breath (a fresh air) next to the walls?. If you do not put anyone into a corner, close to the wall, then there is enough air for the ventilation. And when you consider that the house air moves much more freely than in the body, aligning the concentration of a carbon dioxide and an oxygen ...

[buldozer]

You can have a tiny house 2.8 * 4.8 with a miniature stove.
Maybe a great house somewhere in Eleninskaya. And there will be the boiler, which is known to consume not only the fuel but also the air.
A ventilation, I guess wil you expect. And if the calculation shows that all the stale air will pick up the boiler, then how you will build and operate the ventilation?.
About the sieve.
A sensible objection.
But that's discussed here an ecowool which, in time for this category is not applicable. Although some gas exchange will be with it. (A breathability 75/1000000 mcube/ms Pa). and it must be taken into account in the calculation, especially if the house is not too small.
I am in the alternate version proposed to use a part of breathable material. A fallback for the same reasons. I do not know yet whether you can solve the problem of membrane or not.

[bill]

Who would argue?.
However, it is also obvious that they do not always have time for a life, otherwise I would not have been many changes in them.
A detached house is different from all others.
After all, what is the purpose for State Standard?. A comfortable and safe accommodation. But if the maximum permissible concentration and standards of comfort is at the norm, and we, in spite of this, throw out the energy, we will inevitably have to face the law prohibiting such extravagance.

[Summer]

1) 11.5 of cube - this is a pure oxygen and 30 cubic meters - is the air in which oxygen is only 21% (at best).
2) If all the air exhaled by the person immediately went into the ventilation, it would be enough only to the reimbursement of this amount through the inflow.
But because the exhaled air is mixed with the room and goes into the ventilation not a purely polluted air, and the mixture is clear. Therefore, the flow should be greater.
P.S. I’m reading, and I do not understand the vector of the discussion. Construction regulations are not an argument, 5 bedrooms squares sealed man enough ..
Soon, we come to what is generally no need to breathe ..
I do not know, honestly. Given the same reference investigation is that the bedroom 12 square little ventilation and third hour of the CO2 concentration will exceed 3 times normal, and 9 times outside .. Again, not an argument ..

[constructor]

I believe your friend really thinks so, and he did not want to fool you.
Just the word can mean a different sound.
5000 ppm is a maximum permissible concentration. Perhaps this amount and will not exceed. (Actually it is easy to calculate, but I'm lazy).
And if we take the optimal rate of 800 ppm, it will exceed, and how!.
Look after all references to the reseach, which was kindly provided.
P.P.S. The link about the "breathing house," says that there are ventilation systems, which focus on the content of CO2 in the air (not more than 800ppm). They are terribly expensive I think.

[baltazar]

In principle there are no problems attach to any ventilation system sensor and it all depends largely on the price of the sensor (can range from 10 to ...). What is the cost of CO2 - I do not know (A carbon Monoxide costs reasonable money).
PS: You can thread the needle and try to adapt the car oxygen sensor - because we are interested in the oxygen rather than CO2.

[buldozer]

He has a different operating range. At a normal engine running even in the "horsepower" mode of operation, the mixture is close to stoichiometric - the combustion of the residual oxygen content does not exceed 1.5-2%. In a room air, an oxygen content is bigger.

[expert]

I say why not an argument.
We have another rule.
I think, 12 meters per person. But it only seems. Perhaps, the figure is different. And the impression is that it appears in a certain calculation.
Most importantly, there are only incorrect references. I have not seen any calculations. Although there is no need to be an engineer and a mathematician. Enough to have a common sense and 5 years of schooling behind them.
Why should refer to and explore, even when the hedgehog beforehand it is clear that the closed bedroom for two 12 kvm is little. But it does not mean that we must take a fresh air.
And finally, how much to take?.
The State Standard, I suppose, is targeted to the fact that the central heating system. I did not hear the reverse. And the oven - the consumer of a spoiled air, it seems, does not take into account. Or it may take - I do not know.
Show how you get your numbers?.
By the way, the sensor is a sensible idea. And then pour and pour 30 cubic meters and it is not clear why.
I do not think that such sensor is not available. And without it, I believe, the system is simply impossible. Therefore, I propose to talk about the State Standard to complete as irrelevant. A ventilation is necessary, but it will work as it can.

[expert]

I propose to return to the theme of a "breathable frame house".
Agree with me, the diffusion, however, is more attractive than a ventilation. It allows you to selectively remove the unwanted air from our components.
For the diffusion a breathability is needed.
For the ecowool it is weak. This is good because the material is able to skip a CO and O2 and the are two unacceptable problems: an air flow and a convection in the wall.
Can the wall really miss the air and keep out the wind at the same time?.
Wind, as you know, can do it. And the wind - this is not a natural ventilation, but a heat blowing.
I've looked at the straw as an insert in the wall for this purpose.
I'm in the house will not be carrying a wooden frame, so the hands are untied. Why not to make a wall fully from the straw?. A reliable information about the quality of such wall is missing. If it is breathable while the air penetrated?. And a convection and how to leave a diffusion to avoid it?. Will the pros outweigh the cons?.
The wall will be 2.5 times wider and it is also not good.
The same winds that cause flooding in St. Petersburg, without mild but reinforcing circumstances. Everything is mine!!. Therefore, the walls will be different. North and West are sealed. Well, once sealed, it is probably useful in the wall just to put the glue on the PSP.
But the east and the south wall, on the contrary, I intend to make the most breathing.

[constructor]

A breathing frame house in my understanding is a frame house, which microclimate is not inferior to the microclimate of a wooden house. For a moisture, such effect is achieved by using the ecowool. The wall of ecowool "breathes" with a steam, but the diffusion of gases similar to the diffusion through the wooden wall is not expected.
The point is in the layer of moss and a flax tow, which air permeability is much higher than that of wood.
Therefore, in order that the wall of ecowool had the same properties as the wooden wall, it should also be mounted insert, or a zone of different material.

[buldozer]

I agree that we must first try to "squeeze" everything from the construction of walls, and then see how to improve the performance through the automation. It is sensible to choose the right idea and the construction of walls in relation to the wind rose and the cardinal!. So, to afraid of small spaces and bedrooms there is no particular reason - if we sleep in one room, the oxygen is not used in the others. A conclusion we need to organize a competent ventilation indoors. This is decided by the project and the device of doors or over vents with an acoustic insulation.

[Summer]

I do not know exactly what you are missing. However, the topic has all the data on the CO2 permeability of different materials, requirements for the concentration (800-1000 ppm), and so on.
Think yourself. A wooden house has 1.5 - 2 - 3 kilometers of cracks between the logs + other slits (windows, doors). And if we have a stove in the house, the ventilation simply can not be bad in this house.
You are right: a wood itself as a material is not important in the airflow (a permeability for CO2, 220 times worse than the ecowool). The matter is in the crevices.
Yes, if you did those who deliberately decided to build "breathing" walls of a gas exchange, do not forget that this imposes strict limits on the interior design (a type of wallpaper, etc.) and there are details (the right ventilation, and so etc.).
The smallest herd (for example, a foreman mixed a paint) can nullify all efforts.

[buldozer]

I completely agree!. A "breathable house" is a very delicate thing and a treat must be very careful. Any "school" can ruin all the work. Only for this reason I am somewhat suspicious for the Finnish results. Personally, I think that they can be better:
1. The report is not specified, but most likely, a wet deposition of ecowool was used (the most popular in Finland), and thus an adhesive, worsening the ability to "breathe".
2. We used the wallpaper and glue, respectively, again an unknown glue.
When using the internal lining, I think you can get the best result.

[baltazar]

All fairness, I note that there is not the living Finns sat in a real room and material calculation was used.
Accordingly, no glue for wallpapers is not taken into account, only the materials contained in the "pie" of the wall.
A CO2 permeation resistance of these materials was determined earlier in a real experiment.
It seems, indeed, a wet deposition.
The work does not take into account other issues that may affect both as a plus and a minus sign (for example, at a low temperature, a gas exchange deteriorated, and it is worse with an increase of humidity).
But I do not think that the whole model of reality will have a dramatic difference.
Oh, and to get carried away in the "breathing" walls is also not necessary: icreasing the permeation of CO2, we increase the water vapor permeability. And the vapor as it is known will condensate in a form of drops on the wall in winter.

[bill]

It is curious why do the Finns moisten a cotton wool?. After all, its important properties deteriorate at the same time.
Does the tree suck the moisture from the outside?.
A capillary moisture from the rain falls during the summer, probably. Plus, a kind of diffusion in summer. Even a dew can be, I suppose. But in general, in my opinion, the wall loses a moisture in summer, so even if a moisture falls at night or during the rain, tomorrow in a sunny and a windy day, it will turn around and will go away from the wall.
Similarly, even in the land of drought every day a little becomes wet at night.
Somewhere on this principle even the water is collected.