A "breathing" frame house

[bill]

So, where will it go?. Let's say it begins to accumulate in the outer layer, but near there is a fiber with a lower humidity. Fold two blotters - wet and dry. A humidity will be high. Imagine that you split the wall along many blotters. In the wall a humidity is not an average, of course, because there is a different temperature and a humidity at the ends, but a gradient is established. And as the vapor continues to flow into the wall, the "warm" end of gradient will start to rise (there is a place to evaporate), breaking the balance within.
Well, a thin capillary can’t be filled with water by a half, if the water is enough to fill it all. There are the foces of the surface tension of water (intermolecular interactions).
In fact, the evaporation, as I've said earlier, will continuously go on both ends, and it will replenish by the influx of new vapor, heating the air in the room, you are charging the same thermal energy of molecules and create the increased partial pressure, and sending to the wall. There, condensed, they will give this energy, and join in a capillary flow. This flow you will pull inward, giving the thermal energy of molecules on the surface of capillaries and allowing them to evaporate. And due to the forces of intermolecular interactions that the water has very strong, and you pull the molecules of following items of capillary.
By the way the water rises so from the earth against the forces of attraction due to the thermal energy of the sun.

[constructor]

You are trying to explain me that a capillary transfer exist? And the desiccant materials are capable in their capillaries to retain the moisture?. I agree with this.
Just capillary transport of internal energy of the molecules is a determined fact. See my example above, maybe with a picture it will be clearer.

[expert]

So, the partial pressure of water molecules in the wood from the cold side is more than from the warm side. And the energy of molecule is exchanged, and they have no directional movement through this energy. So, the concentration will flow.

[buldozer]

Quite the contrary!.
Cold molecules are more, but they are much colder, but they have a small energy, i.e they have a less "partial" pressure.
A large partial pressure - it's not something where is a lot of molecules, and even where they are faster!. UPD: more precisely, the set of concentration / temperature you should look.
Compare with a vapor:
- 20 a partial pressure is 0.94 mm Hg. of Art.
a humidity of 100% (1.08 g / cu m.)
+ 20, however, the same partial pressure of 0.94 mm Hg.
but the humidity is 0.94 / 17.5 = 5.4% (0.93 g / cu m)
So, a smaller number of molecules, but at a higher speed (a temperature) provide the same partial pressure.
The same processes in a liquid.

[constructor]

- In the case of vapor.
I swich on a powerful humidifier. I make a humidity in the room, for example up to 80 -20 percent. -20 behind, the vapor pressure will be nearly 2,000 Pa. The air content in the room will be, approximately, less for one percent.
I swich off a humidifier. the process of diffusion begins. The vapor goes through the permeable wall. The air comes to its place.
In my house there is about 5 cubic meters of the open wood. During cold days, when the ventilation is reasonable, with an initial humidity of 60 percent (a moisture sorption of wood is 11 percent), the water stored in the tree (55H5 = 275 liters) is enough to hold out for almost a month before the final humidity of 40 percent (35H5 = 175 liters).
The wood will give about 275-175 = 100 liters.
Not taking into account a hysteresis moisture sorption of wood, plus other income of vapor. Breathing, drinking...
So, ... a moisture transfer.
I wrapped a pipe duct with a tape of 2-3 layers. It stoped sweating.

[baltazar]

- I have another figures.
A conditional density of dried pine (0%) 455kg/cube.
At 20 60% sorbitol. wood moisture content is 12%.
At 20 40% sorbitol. wood moisture content is 8%.
The difference of 4%.
The wood can store up 5 cubes * 455kg/cube * 0.04 = 91kg = 91 liter of water.
Let’s assume that the incoming outdoor air is heated than we have 20% of humidity. For our comfort (40%) each cube of the incoming air has to give 0.2 * 17.32 = ~ 3.5g of water.
i.e 9100/3, 5 = 2570 cubic meters of air.
With a reasonable ventilation (60 cubic meters per hour for 2 people) it is enough for 2570/60 = 42.8 hours.
But this is the ideal if all the moisture from the wood goes into the room, and nothing will go on the street.
In reality, a "moisture" from the surface of wood will be missed, so, quickly to fill the incoming air with a moisture, i.e, the air will be drier, but the wood will dry longer.

[Summer]

Next. and Ets2> Ets1, i.e the energy of molecules on the surface of cellulose is more on the warm side than on the cold side, and a capillary transfer will be sent from hot to cold.
It's time to send a telegram of genius in Stockholm. I pretend to be 10% or at least 3 %.
But only in a preliminary sense I would like to see how it works in similar conditions.
For example, take an intensive and hot steam of a burning alcohol lamp. Why does it not screw back into the spirit lamp?.

[baltazar]

I do not know what is it a spirit lamp, what kind of processes take place there, and I do not wanna know.
And as to check in practice from the start as requested: give me details of the actual moisture content in a log house in figures.
Generally, if on my unreasonable assumption the "tree is sucking a moisture from the outside", i.e a capillary transfer would be determined by the concentration, rather than the energy of molecules in a log home without even the inhabitants, but with a heating, should be maintained at the level of humidity of 70% or higher. But it is not the cause of the concentration diffusion (a capillary transfer in this case), and the energy of molecules.

[expert]

- Try to understand the reasons for that:
1) at -10 an equilibrium moisture content is 20% (with a humidity of 80%, i.e 1.7 mm Hg.).
and at + 20, only 3% (at the same 1.7 mm Hg. or a humididty of 10% ).
2) at -10 a pressure of vapor is 2.14 mm Hg.
and at + 20, it is about 17.5 mm. Hg.
I'm sure that ypu will understand that the internal energy of molecules is the reason.
Incidentally, a similar and obvious process is the heat metabolism, which also occurs due to "equalize the internal energy, or rather that a part which is the kinetic energy of molecules."

[constructor]

The transfer of a gaseous substance through some medium (in this case a wall) is also a diffusion. In the light of your theory, please explain why the sample-capillary water rises from the ground up, such as on the foundation. It goes against the temperature gradient, against a concentration gradient, the forces of gravity.

[baltazar]

By the way, do you think the fact that the wood is dried from 20% to 3% of a mass moisture content which means:
- That a part of capillaries is completely freed from a moisture?.
- That the water layer on the inner surface of tube capillary reduced? (I lean to this).

[Summer]

- I did not understand the answer about the foundation. What do you mean in this case as a partial pressure?. It is a water, not a gas. I had called a concentration gradient, although of course this is also true.
My answer - the water is raised by the surface tension of water on a wet surface. Well, this is where a thin glass tube lowered into the water and the water goes through it.
For some reason, I asked about the land, there is a perfect analogy: from the cold zone, where is a lot of water it rises to where is a heat and a little water. Or you can see the difference in these processes?.
And that means "the wood dried from 20% to 3% of a mass moisture content". In reality, this figure of 3%, I think, does not exist. Well, if it is only in a furnace. However, I do not know much about a percentage of water in a dead piece of wood.
If this moisture is possible, it remained the molecular water on the cellulose and other hydrophilic surfaces. I think, we are not talking about the capillary water here. Such piece of wood as an activated carbon will collect any moisture.

[buldozer]

Links characterize an unsuccessful struggle with the standards under the sharpened glass. Actually, the rules of IRC 2007, the cellulose can be used without a vapor barrier practically across the United States (and not in 1-4 zones, as before), including Alaska. The exception is the houses with a high humidity (a bath, swimming pools etc).

[bill]

About 3%: About the partial pressure in the foundation: the foundation became an analog of our wall, it is necessary that a gradient of partial pressures from the warm side to the cold. Otherwise it will not be an analog.
Yeah, and the foundation, one side is actually standing in the water, is not a synonymous with the wall on both sides of the air humidity less than 100%, IMHO.
In general, if the outside timber wall is constantly watering, the humidity will wet all logs. But there are not the conditions which I took as a basis (a max. wood moisture is 20%).

[bill]

About 3%: About the partial pressure in the foundation: the foundation became an analog of our wall, it is necessary that a gradient of partial pressures from the warm side to the cold. Otherwise it will not be an analog.
Yeah, and the foundation, one side is actually standing in the water, is not a synonymous with the wall on both sides of the air humidity less than 100%, IMHO.
In general, if the outside timber wall is constantly watering, the humidity will wet all logs. But there are not the conditions which I took as a basis (a max. wood moisture is 20%).

[constructor]

As a humidity. In general, do not try to understand the processes of a moisture transfer according to the discussions at the forum: the words of the participants are inaccurate, not right and sometimes may even be erroneous and harmful (I mean everyone, and myself too).
It is better to read a specialized literature.
For example, "V.N. Bogoslosky. A thermal regime of building. Moscow: Stroiizdat 1979.": Section II.2 "Thermodynamics of a moist material in the wall" etc.
An elapsed time will be less, and a confusing is more.
I read a volume of this book, and has learned one thing: the water transfer in the wall is always directed toward the potential gradient humidity.
Translations of some systems of units:
1 mm of water column = 9.8 Pa
1 mm Hg = 133.3 Pa
The water vapor permeability. In the internet it seems to mess with the dimensions:
g / m * h * mm Hg = 0.625 / Mu
mg / m * h * mm Hg = 4.2 / Mu
You've got to keep in mind that we have the water vapor permeability coefficient, and they have the water vapor permeability coefficient of resistance, which is always greater than the unity and its dimensionless.
Strictly speaking 0.625 m * h * mm Hg / g, 4.2 m * h * mm Hg. / Mg. It is not easy to find the data on modern materials.

[buldozer]

1) First, it suggests that you are extremely polite conversationalist who always gives the source of quotation to find the full text.
2) Secondly, the quote is not clear who "assumes", and what scientific theories and experiments are confirmed and "accepted".
3) Third, V.N. Bogoslovsky thought quite differently (and not only believed, but experiments were carried out with colleagues!).

[baltazar]

I Note that our local experts were absolute the world leaders in studying the question of a moisture transfer in building constructions.
So, for me the book of Bogoslovsky is much more authoritative source than your anonymous quote, sorry.
4) Fourth, it means that for some reason you really want to catch me in the wrong, that surprises me. I would be in your place did not look for mistakes in my judgment (which, of course, can not be), and focused on understanding the essence.
5) Finally, pursuant to the paragraph 3, your theory about the jinns and the "return of water" back to the premise is false. In general, even Constructor, the producer of cellulose fibre, said that "the ability of wood / ecowool give a moisture into the room, ahem, somewhat exaggerated, and in winter a transfer of the water vapor is still directed towards the street".

[expert]

so, the quote is not clear who "is assumed", and what scientific theories and experiments are confirmed and "accepted" ...
But let us clarify what is meant in the scientific world the term "assumed".
This is the cornerstone of our argument.
Without a consensus on this issue, we will not move on one millimeter to the truth.
- V.N. Bogoslovsky thought quite differently (and not only believed, but experiments were carried out with colleagues!).
You know, last time, I was familiar with its contents.
Just the phrase, in my understanding, has to come from you.
But, you see, V.N. Bogoslovsky was right or wrong, in any case, we must first understand what he denies, and only then can we properly understand what does he claim.

[bill]

Until recently, local experts were absolute the world leaders in studying the question of a moisture transfer in buildings.
Let's be clear - I have no less proud of our staff.
But, however, any ... opposing schools (I hope you do not meant it) I regard as a step in the fight against the bourgeois pseudoscience.
This is what we have already passed. They are generally experts in no way inferior to ours.
Look at the list of links to any scientific works. In some ways, we are stronger. And so each other dragges forward to the progress. And we have with you, by the way, the same thing.
It means that for some reason you really want to catch me in the wrong, that surprises me. I would be in your place did not look for mistakes in my judgment (which, of course, can not be), and focused on understanding the essence ..
You know, one of my mistake, I would give five others.
After all, the error, like a snowball, further, multiplies another errors. Infinitely more advantageous to learn their mistakes than other people to know. In the debate you propose to remove a fuse, an interest, an excitement, an emotion?
I simply will not be able.
The ability of wood / ecowool to give a moisture into the room, is somewhat exaggerated.
So, there is no climate in a wooden house?. The moisture in it is the same as in others.