A "breathing" frame house

[Summer]

In my opinion.
A moisture transfer in the wall in winter is always directed toward the street.
Therefore, without additional sources of moisture (ie. a humidifier) in winter in the house from vapor permeable walls, the moisture is not higher than in the home of the vapor tight, and likely even lower.
Another issue that the wood (and the ecowool) are good moisture accumulators and with a sharp decrease of the internal humidity, can give a little bit moisture back into the room. What exactly is a "little" - this is an issue because most of the moisture will still go to the street.
In my opinion, for this "little" it is not worth to fight for it.
Even if the task to achieve accumulation of moisture, the inner lining in the wood wall steamproof will cope with this problem very well.

[buldozer]

And I disagree here!.
1. You need to fight for even minor improvements of steam and air.
2. A wood sheathing or a drywall does not replace the improvement according to claim 1, but supplements!.

[constructor]

I think it is worse. The box with vapor barriers should be aired more frequently, or without a complex automation is very easy to wet the atmosphere by the household moisture. A fine wood paneling will smooth out the inevitable errors, but not completely. A vapor permeable wooden wall will make it very naturally.

[baltazar]

To be honest, I see this a plus, but also a serious disadvantage of "breathing" house.
The wall works (somewhat) like a sponge and, accordingly, stores in the "pores" harmful substances. The exit I see only one (possibly very unpleasant and unacceptable to many participants of discussion) – a breathable house should be released, as the used filter. Its term of service is determined not by the strength design, but the degree of a"filter" pollution.

[bill]

In general, I expressed this opinion, after reading the literature and making small calculations, estimations.
In the opinion of other participants of the forum may be different. Let everyone decide for himself.
Yet we must not forget that the use of vapor permeable walls under certain conditions may not be safe in terms of reliability and durability of the frame.
Under what conditions the lack of vapor barrier is safe. Anyway, on the sites of domestic producers of the ecowool such information (supplemented by calculations, proofs and certificates), unfortunately, is missing.
P.S. To wet the air in winter in the house - is questionable.

[constructor]

There are truths to which it is important to understand at first.
I asked what does mean the word of V.N.Bogoslovsky "customary" in science?. Custom views in science are such views that are considered to be true by the vast majority of experts. A conventional wisdom has traditionally been questioned. Those scientists engaged in that they seek to refute it. They find the weaknesses and try to beat them in an aspen stake.
Sometimes it is successfully. Particularly distinguished experts receive the Nobel Prize.
But this is not always the case. Sometimes it turns out that the count is not an aspen, and it does not count. All the arguments under the due diligence crumble.
For example, at the first election in St. Petersburg, one prof. Denisov just trampled a General Theory of Relativity. Everybody believed him. It seems before Denisov, a GTR wastrampled by Logunov, a rector of Moscow State University. While doubting the professionalism of Logunov is not necessary, a GTR nevertheless resisted. Open any research site of discussion . There are topics about the incorrectness of GTR on 100 pages.
But, however, the general theory of relativity remains.
The same is with a theory of moisture potential gradient. Maybe this theory disproved generally accepted views as a whole, may be partly, but perhaps it did not denied anything. I am not so competent to judge it. Imagine the situation: two vesels one is on top, the other is below. The pipe is between them.
it is damp below. At the top it is dry.
Perhaps, add a delta temperature, but below there is only a partial pressure. And yet, though everything else, the air drop of water pipes.
That is, it's not gas. Gravity, of course, present.
where will fly a drop?
I could give myself the obvious answer. But there is another more powerful force and I would get a clear answer.

[buldozer]

Forget about the gradient of capillary moisture and a moisture stretching back to the inner wall.
The moisture transfer (a vapor or a water) is always directed toward the potential gradient humidity, both in general and on independent phases of moisture (this follows from the fact that in the steady state a moisture transfer, the moisture potentials of each phase are equal at every point of the wall).
But what I quoted passages from Bogoslovsky?
It is better to read the source, there will not be a "broken telephone".
For me personally, after reading this book, the process of a moisture transfer in the wall is clear to many to close it, and do not pick up. For myself, I have already made conclusions. Persuade someone I was not very interesting.

I'm not going to join with you in the spatial discussions on "what it is customary," and so on. I am ready to lead only a meaningful dialogue.
Your message does not say almost anything.
And if you do not understand your example, where "the force of gravity is present,"no resemblance to the horizontal water transfer in the wall, then it is too bad.
You can continue to think what you want, not to believe the book of Bogoslovsky, etc., but do not enter more than one error in the ridiculous quotes, taken out of context!.
Your quote, taken out of the book in which this same quotation, and refuted - the same as saying "It is believed that the earth is flat" and the silence that had already centuries ago were proved otherwise.
They saw the quote in Google, you have not figured out what was happening, and immediately blurted out to the forum, as an argument with a bunch of emoticons. And now you are making excuses. It is ridiculous.. What else to say.
For me the purpose of participation in this topic is an attempt to benefit from it, for you it is a dispute with a passion and an emotion: who is right and who is not. In the debate, I did not participate. If you have any questions for me personally, so, write in personal.

[bill]

But the fact is that, unlike you, I know in general terms, at least, what is customary. And any theory, in principle, at this level can not refute the common facts.
But it may look from the other positions. I didn’t read it, but I can not find a possibility for this theory.
And to you everything is clear. Arguing can not find appropriate.
so, the drop will fly down. Because the partial pressure is nothing compared to the force of gravity.
When the polite bill drew his weird drawings, then explaining the movement of water through the capillaries, he didn’t take into account the meaningful kinetic energy.
(It, too - is nothing compared to the force of gravity).
What am I about the gravity?
And it is nothing too compared to capillary forces.

[expert]

Any theory is nothing without testing it in practice, it is true.
But if you are revered more, and not limited to one user, then the proof of the theory of experiments with a radioactive isotope found out about other experiments in a gas silicate, a foam and a filter paper, and about the capillary force concerned you. And do not carry a nonsense!
But apparently, to read a book - it's not for you. It is better to argue on the forum.

[Summer]

I do not know about you, but I want to make a very thick wall. But here's the problem is brewing. A condensation zone extended outward. The possibility of evaporation from the outside to get worse. The moisture will decrease and the temperature of the wall will decrease.
To evaporate on the inside of the wall, too, will get worse - also will increase the path.
But at the same a total weight of wool and its moisture content increases.
Do not increase the humidity and will not be whether it is critical with a respect to the frame and the ecowool. Do not have a thick wall to put a vapor barrier

[buldozer]

I'm not going to engage you in the discussion.
But I highly recommend reading at least a tutorial on a heat for schools. Then there will be allegations that the capillary "leak" (moisture) against the force of gravity.
If you do not want to waste your time, please refer to Finns (they are next to you) to talk about the "crisis of 70gg frame." You will hear a lot of interesting things. As heating engineers studied the works of Russian (the theory of moisture transfer) .. "It has become fashionable to throw stones" in the national science, as the inhabitant does not see the application of the results of Russian developments. Hence, a worship of the Western high-tech materials, technologies and systems. But this is not a problem to scientists, this problem of the state, can not realize a huge potential of domestic science in specific goods.

[Summer]

I read Bogoslovsky yesterday. I do not know whether to laugh or to cry. It should also know such a complicated theory, in practice, come to the conclusion that there is no perpetual motion machine!
For those who do not read it, I will explain the essence of experience. Take the cylinder, built of circles of filter paper (a blotter). All this is wet by the certain amount of water and placed in a heat, a steam. The ends of the cylinder is placed in thermostats, one hot and one cold. Wait until the equilibrium is established. The cold end, of course, is more humid and hot - much dry. So, the gradient is established. Next, a circle of paper is removed, it is put a drop of radioactive label, and a circle is put back. Two weeks later you check where is the label. And it should be the same place!. It is concluded that the theory is correct.
And where it should escape it!. The entire system is attached to the energy expended to maintain the gradient. The system is in a state of static equilibrium. Nothing will not evaporate. To make something moving away need more energy!. The inserted tag with a drop of extra energy is spent on the spread of the droplets on the neighbor layers filtrovalki by capillary forces.
The main mistake of Bogoslovsky is the statement that
"It is considered that the liquid phase of water moves under the influence of the gradient of moisture and a vapor diffusion is influenced by the partial pressure gradient, and that in the non-isothermal moisture balance these flows are equal and oppositely directed."
It is only true at the molecular level. All these processes occur in a single layer of blotting paper or on the border between them. But not from one end of the cylinder to the other.
A dynamic equilibrium of the system is determined by the fact that from one end, as much water comes as is removed from the other (and its second experience is just that shows). But it is precisely from this it follows that the excess water entering the system must go back, or the balance will inevitably shift. But do not take it "back" as the actual current flow of water around.
Bogoslovsky just invented a "quantitative tool" to describe the moisture in the wall. But to do so could be much less sophisticated way.

[baltazar]

You, apparently, sorry, you were reading diagonally. I didn’t trow any stone in our science. There were no thoughts or intentions. Yes, I absolutely elementary unfamiliar with the heat engineering, our and foreign, at least to juge something.
But. You do not agree with the fact that on a practical level in the world in any ditsipline there are no very advanced and retarded?
The information is available to all.
And in science, a pioneering idea today has not been waiting, as by Fokine for 30-50 years, and became instantly known around the world because the communication of scientists.
"Worship of the West." Now I will find for you a decent analog .. "Today, he plays jazz".
We have everything is a state problem. In fact - this is a problem of backwardness of Russia, we have an investment of the Arctic, or when we have money, the investment of Somalia. The normal economy, is not just the economy, it is a complex society and the rest is grown as a garden by a patient gardener. And on such a body we have quite decent science exists as a palm tree near Tambov.
A business is international by definition. He spit it to no one.
And he is rational. Even if you think that it is not.
Then there will be allegations that the capillary "leak" (a moisture) against the force of gravity.
You know, the interaction of capillary and gravity actually is elementary. What you wrote, I did not say anywhere else.
But generally, if the liquid moves up through the capillary, rather than horizontally, then the motion stops only when balancing, capillary forces with the force of gravity.
That is, it is important in this argument is that initially, the capillary force is, shall we say, stronger.

[Summer]

Why are you criticizing me for Bogoslovsky. It is not very clear, moreover, without a recourse to other sources, your criticism for me is not authoritative, sorry.
But hopefully, with the basic assumption that the movement of moisture is possible only under the action of moisture potential, you will not argue? (1)
And also, the fact that under a steady moisture moisture transfer the potentials of all phases of water at some point on a wet material are equal? (2)
But this implies, and the obvious conclusion: if the direction of the vapor (a gas phase) inside-out (because of the potential gradient moisture vapor in the acc. 1), the direction of motion of the liquid phase will be the same. (Gradient of moisture potential of water is the same in accordance with 2).

[baltazar]

The gradient of moisture potential is the average, indicating the total moisture transfer at a given point at a given temperature. I am stressing - total. What are the individual components of the total transfer – it is a question. The can go as they want depending on specific conditions.
I'm afraid until we move on to the existing language of science – chemistry, physics, thermodynamics, finally, we do not understand each other. You stuck on this "gradient of moisture potential."
Answer me a simple question that I have tried several times to ask. If the wall comes in pairs of numbers greater than can bring the wall out, what happens to him?
I do not criticize the theology in general, I criticize only the chapter. And do not criticize, and try to convert a normal scientific language understood by not only builders. The sources are the classic textbooks on chemistry and physics.

[constructor]

As I understand it, you are talking about a simple increase of the wall moisture from an absorbent material, but no one is arguing that the wall will gain the moisture. Only now, the fact that the "water will not merge the moisture gradient back". There will be an ordinary tree sorption of water molecules along the path of movement of a steam. And it will continue for as long as the steady-state water transfer is established at a constant moisture content of wood at each point of the wall. If the wall will increase the humidity, the air in the room wil begin to pick up this humidity, until a new equilibrium state is established. Subtleties omitted.
Then it is really nothing to discuss. P.S. I do not suggest you refer to anywhere on me. There is no conference, but an exchange of views. I have the right to have my own point of view. Besides, I did not notice that my opinion was very different from his. You did not notice that he describes the equilibrium processes, but I offered the consideration of non-equilibrium process.

[expert]

I'll try to begin.
1) The ability to carry out a full gas exchange for CO2 and O2 without the use of ventilation.
At the moment, we can confidently say that without ventilation still can not do, if you focus on maintaining the clean indoor air (up to 1000ppm).
2) Ensure the indoor air humidity in the range 40-60% for a winter and a summer without the use of humidifiers and dehumidifiers.
It seems no one is arguing that it is impossible to achieve.
So, this item can be deleted.
3) Ensure the inertia of the internal humidity change.
This is where I personally have no doubt that this is necessarily a permeable wall. Maybe enough for a large number of wood (probably, an ecowool) in the inner casing. But there are other opinions.
4) You should also remember to find the cons of a "breathable" wall to soberly and objectively assess whether they outweigh the advantages.

[Summer]

1. A gas exchange can be improved by using the insulated ventilation and mentioned bypass lattices.
2. In the cold period the humidity must be maintained at the expense of additional ways.
3. It provides the lag changes in the indoor air humidity .
4. Cons (I have already mentioned):
- Because of the fact that the ecowool "breathes", it absorbs like a sponge, the harmful substances and it has a limited lifetime (as any filter)
For sale there is a domestic ecowool with the "intelligible" and trustworthy staff.

[baltazar]

The water vapor itself does not contain the additional substances, so, the ability to "breathe" and absorb the steam is not connected with the theory of accumulation of "harmful" substances in the material.
If the undesirable substances are present in the air, above all, they have absorbed elements of the interior – a wallpaper, textiles, a furniture, and so on.
IMHO, it is better if such substances are rapidly removed from the indoor air.

[buldozer]

The straw in terms of opportunities to accumulate and distribute the moisture in the wall exceeds the wood, due to the better conductivity of the capillary. For these reasons, and because of the better ability to evaporate the moisture from the wall when there are appropriate conditions, the straw is protected from a mold than the wood. All the best climatic conditions for the coating of plaster of straw in the straw directly without any moisture films, because they interrupt the capillary transfer of moisture. This is confirmed by the excellent condition of old houses built. In humid conditions, a repellent can be recommended, but the vapour additives in a plaster. While the application of sealing wall penetrations for interior and exterior walls should be treated with caution.