A "breathing" frame house

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  • Опубликована: 07 фев 2012, 14:30
  • Автор: Summer
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Summer
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Тема: Re: A "breathing" frame house
In the context of this forum there is a concept of "breathing wall" that defines in one degree or another, a steam \ a gas permeable wall. But not the wall with a standard construction.
Sometime you are speaking about the wall construction, which will regulate the humidity in the room without a ventilation.
When people are talking about the comfort, in the context of the issue, a log or a lumber home without finishing is considered to be an ideal home.
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baltazar
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Тема: Re: A "breathing" frame house
We have here another misconception – a vapor barrier is needed to isolate the heater from the water vapor, which tends to go from a warm room outside in a cold weather. Learn this question in detail. The forum has a lot of things.
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bill
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Тема: Re: A "breathing" frame house
And what do you suggest? Make your own way, spit on the manufacturer's technical specifications of insulation? The flag in your hands. Offer a fundamentally different insulation than a fiberglass? I listen to you carefully, I do not see any alternative.
You want a "breathing" wooden house – cut the wood – make a frame house? And do not forget about the modern requirements of energy efficiency, see a state standard II-3-79 *, a state standard 23-01-99. A "breathing" frame house is an utopia. The essence of a frame house is quite different - to maximize an energy efficiency and a durability with an optimal design.
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buldozer
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Тема: Re: A "breathing" frame house
I'm very sorry. I am new here and but I am a meteorologist by profession and I see that some here some guys poorly understood what is the water vapor and its concentration in the air or what is the humidity. A humidity is measured by 2 methods.
1. As a percentage of maximum possible (a relative humidity).
It measures in percentage. With that I think everyone understands.
2. The absolute humidity. Here is more complicated but it is necessary to understand why a condensation is created in the insulation. The absolute humidity gives the mass of evaporated water and contained in a cube
of air. How much water can be contained in a cubic meter of air?
The answer is: from a few milligrams at -40
up to a ton of water at a temperature of 100 degrees.
Why not? Yes, because of the number of gas molecules in a cubic meter of air is always
constant and called the number A. During the air heating molecules "accelerated" and filled the space between the molecules evaporated water molecules of H2O. Upon cooling of air volume, air molecules are compressed, and "squeeze" the molecules of a water vapor and
condensed creating the water.
...
That is why the warm air is more humid, or very roughly at a temperature + 30 degrees, the air contains an "extra" bucket of water when compared with the air at a temperature of – 30 degrees. So, every bucket of water for every cubic meter volume of air in the house tries to get out through the walls, as well as to evaporate from the exterior of house, these buckets can not condense due to the difference between the outboard side and inside temperatures, these "buckets" condense inside the walls. So, the walls get wet and need for the vapor barrier to keep out the water in the wall.
I hope intelligibly explained.
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Summer
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Тема: Re: A "breathing" frame house
I certainly find a fault, but: 1 cubic meter of water weighs 1000 kg. 1 cubic meter weighs a couple of "little" less because has a "somewhat" lower density. For the rest, thanks for the clarification!
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buldozer
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Тема: Re: A "breathing" frame house
Exactly, the density of a water vapor density is much less than the water density of a dry air at a temperature 100 ° C.
So, you are absolutely right: to hold a ton of water in one cubic meter of air does not happen at a normal atmosphere pressure. Is that to compress under a pressure. I mean the fact that when heated up to 100 degrees, "almost all" of the air molecules are replaced by molecules of a water vapor. That is why it is so hard to breathe in a Russian steam bath, or in the tropics. In this case, we breathe a water vapor not an oxygen.
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baltazar
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Тема: Re: A "breathing" frame house
Here, at last there comes the understanding. And here all the people are trying to put the timber (and products from it) in a raw with a mineral Eco wool, etc. Why then, in the forum, do not try to work together to prove Fermat's Theorem? But a nature is more complicated than would be there, for example, some little animals that exist contrary to the laws of physics.
Here, on the forum you can only operate facts, develop theories, unfortunately, it is absolutely useless because of a different education. But the facts show that the humidity in the house, even with the walls of ecowool (not to mention the natural wood) actually supported!
But! For this we must have either an equal water vapor permeability of outer and inner sides of wall or a water vapor permeability of outer side should be smaller. Both cases contradict our state standard codes and norms (SNIP) that say that a water vapor permeability of outer side should be at least five times higher. But if you do so, the inner part of house will be also dry, as the walls with a vapor barrier. So, the ecowool should really save some water, contrary to building regulations. And where does this border you can know it only experimentally, and specifically for each region.
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constructor
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Тема: Re: A "breathing" frame house
Who says that everything is on the surface?
And who says that the laws of thermodynamics are 100% correct? We are told that it is an axiom, but there is a tolerance in which they work and which they do not work.
Even the speed of light is not constant as it was considered always – a gravity changes it. What can we say about thermodynamics.
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bill
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Тема: Re: A "breathing" frame house
I do not like to theorize. At this point it seems clear to me not to bother with the inventing of "breathing" walls, carrying a gas exchange between the outdoor and the indoor space , it is still unknown what this will evolve to (including some money), but to do the calculation and the installation of a good ventilation system.
As for the eco wool. I saw what does it consists of, there is no fundamental difference from the same "Isover". This is the same "Isover", or rather its production waste, shredded and packed into a bag. I think that when moistened it will behave the same if not worse, given into account a high initial density.
As for the PSP (is this a polystyrene, as I understand?) A polystyrene has a porous structure, its water permeability is equal to zero. That's really doesn’t breath.
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bill
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Тема: Re: A "breathing" frame house
I live in such house. The second floor made of frame with an ecowool. There is no vapor barrier on the outside only there is a windscreen. There is no ventilation at all)) But the atmosphere is absolutely comfortable in the house.
Heat losses are within accepted. At the house of 120 square meters in a cold season, a boiler is not issued more than 8 kW.
And as for the ventilation, frankly, it is a fairy tale for the poor. Not only it is expensive, so, it is also unprofitable in the operation. And if you spend money on a building, then for the ventilation, as well as for the heating, you will pay the rest of your life. Plus, a constant noise, drafts, and the high cost of automatic climate control, difficulties in recovery.
So, it is desirable to advise the same things knowing the subject.
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constructor
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Тема: Re: A "breathing" frame house
These plates are indicators of such water vapor permeability.
An estimated coefficient of water vapor, mg / (mchPa)
GB1 0,13
GB2 0,06
GB3 0,03
If you make a log house from the inside out
1) a gypsum fiber board
2) an ecowool
3) GB2 (a gypsum fiber board), a thickness 25 or 35 mm
Does this house normal in terms of water vapor?
GB1 (a gypsum fiber board), of course, it would be better, but GB2 can be covered from the outside by a vapor-permeable facade texture paint with a thick layer and to close the issue of façade, its density is higher, so, as an element of rigidity a structure will work better.
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buldozer
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Тема: Re: A "breathing" frame house
I have seen how the glass wool was made, including the blowing wool, at the company called "Saint-Gobain Isover. Construction Products Russia" in Egorievsk. There modernized two conveyor lines and I designed and launched one of them from scratch. I worked hard at a factory. Do you think I could get acquainted with the production? And so. The blowing wool is a departure of the main production, often with the defect of a structure material, for example formed on stopping the machine from torn packages dropped from the conveyor on the floor, which traveled loaders and so on. Then this garbage is cruched and tucked into a bag. As for the blowing cellulose, I do not know, I did not meet.
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expert
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Тема: Re: A "breathing" frame house
However, the cost of running, this does not diminish in any way. The inflow of 50 cubes per person should be warm. If it's a natural flow, it should be warm all over. You, probably, in the next topic, as a theoretician, drew attention to the numbers? The heat costs on a ventilation are equal to the costs of heating. And you will have to bear them the rest of your life.
So, not only my opponent does know the subject, but you are also, unfortunately.
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bill
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Тема: Re: A "breathing" frame house
I hope I have the right to my own mistakes?
Now, tell me, please, why does a vapor permeable or breathable wall (call it whatever you want) so attractive in terms of comfort? b) in terms of energy efficiency? c) in terms of longevity.
In order not to be unfounded, I will share my observations and conclusions based on realities, can someone tell me what I am mistaken globally, and this will facilitate our understanding?
First. A comfort. Take a brick house built in 19th century. The wall thickness is about 80 cm. Is it breathable? I do not believe it. So, the atmosphere is quite comfortable there (I have been in this building for a long time, at different seasons of the year).
The same thing I should say about the building of metal sandwich panels. The same thing to say about the building of a wooden building, upholstered inside by a penofol. Maybe, I'm just not as picky about the comfort?
Second. An energy efficiency. If the gas exchange occurs, let it be "diffuse", how can I control it? If I understand something, when increasing a temperature, a gas exchange is also expected to grow, and the additional heat losses are unavoidable.
Third. In a cold season, the humidity in the room is several times higher than the outside. A moisture is always seeking from heat to cold and from the larger to the smaller concentration, if the laws of thermodynamics were not abolished by the presidential decree. How will the moisture passing through the dew point within the building envelope? How it will affect its durability?
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constructor
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Тема: Re: A "breathing" frame house
Yes, I agree. A blowing wool or a mineral wool is produced like that. Its main purpose - to finish a layer of insulation in attic cool roofs to eliminate seams and isolated places in the complex horizons. The material provides a significant shrinkage, so you can not use it as the primary insulation layer.
Besides, I doubt the fixity of small fibers without a binder ... Well, ignorance is fixable. I have being working with a cellulose for three years and regularly learning something new about the material. A hygroscopicity of cellulose is a working property, one of the ecowool differences from other heaters.
By the way, based on the hygroscopic properties and a capillary transfer, works such dispensable thing as an underwear in a winter sport. A moisture is absorbed from the skin without the formation of drops of capillaries "termomaterial" (based on vegetable or animal fibers or polymer microfibers fabrics – a cotton, a merino, a polypropylene) and quickly removed through the capillaries of the human skin, where it evaporates and goes into the atmosphere through the outer garment. The layer of the same "termomaterial" delays a lot of air, which provides a good thermal insulation of the human body.
Lack of drops of sweat on the skin minimizes a heat loss, and the man is easier to maintain a comfortable microclimate. And note you don’t need to use films and a ventilation.
The residential house was easier and harder, materials are coarser, and more processes, so they can go in different directions at different times. You need compromises. However, if the material allows you to "pay" for the benefit, a greater sin not to use it.
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buldozer
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Тема: Re: A "breathing" frame house
The influx need to be heated in winter, and if your ventilation vents as required SNIPS (Standard codes and norms), the costs for heating the outside air are quite decent. So, even a natural ventilation system pulls a lot of operation costs.
And now, let’s take my home, which you rated as "nothing special":-).
I do not have any ventilation as I have already written. Only, the hood in the kitchen, working on when the stove running. And the hood in the boiler room, but it is plugged almost all winter)).
The atmosphere in the house is quite comfortable, it is checked. For example, the smell of paint was gone for about three hours. Smells from the kitchen (which also functions as a large living room) are removed more quickly. The air is always pleasant to breathe. My wife and my grandmother can smell a stuffiness very well, tested at a town apartment.
Well, so what.. And the fact that the air comes from the street anyway.
But how? Yes, I do not know). And there are certainly gaps and cracks and a diffuse transfer)) But! On heating it goes much below the average, the cost is high for heating the air outside. Here is an entire economy. The benefits are obvious. Palpable, but never theoretical.
I firmly believe that the processes of water and air transfer in wooden houses have not been studied fully, there are few materials on this subject, and to interpolate a general theory for specific conditions is not correct.
Once, I spent three days searching for the answer to a simple question - how much air passes through the beam, a diameter of 20 cm in the longitudinal direction per hour .. And I found nothing. Even a hint of what I searched.
And then, how to respect the theorists?
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expert
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Тема: Re: A "breathing" frame house
The concept of comfort is very individual. Some people feel good in the houses with a forced ventilation, but someone feels uncomfortable in such house. As for me, for example, I feel comfortable in a brick house with such ventilation. Some people like the wooden log houses.
A frame house with a open structure of wall has the following features (advantages) IMHO:
1. It regulates the indoor climate (including a moisture) in a mode similar to the wooden houses. And if so, I do not need to interfere with this regulation.
2. This wall by the energy efficiency and stability characteristics exceeds chopped / lumber walls.
3. As for the durability, I do not see any problems with that wall.
I do not see now... And for the maintainability, such type of walls is out of the competition.
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Summer
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Тема: Re: A "breathing" frame house
What are you talking about? If someone believes that the air in sufficient quantities passes through the wall, so, let believe. The arguments begin with the water vapor permeability, and transferred to the ventilation.
Let everybody remains its own. But the energetic effect of "breathing" walls we can’t see. Hopefully, no one denies an energy conservation law? In this case, what's the difference where it comes from the air: from the walls or a ventilation? In one case, these unfortunate 50 m3 of cold air pass through the walls and in other way, - through the vent pipe. Both are necessary to spend the same amount of energy for its heating.
And if the normal ventilation system can be set to return a heat exchanger part of "departing" heat, what will remain for "breathing" walls? The air can’t move out there in two directions simultaneously. A heat exchanger fails.
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baltazar
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Тема: Re: A "breathing" frame house
The moisture rapidly evaporates from the upper layers of wood while getting up from deeper layers (a capillary transport of moisture). During the transition of liquid to a gaseous state the energy spends all the way, so, a wet timber is not heated by the sun because it occurs in a dry wood. That's why the moisture comes out of the timber and not vice versa. The air is nothing and the lecturer was right. Notice, do not require respect for me, The albedo logs will decrease during the shrinkage.
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constructor
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Тема: Re: A "breathing" frame house
I'm talking about the air movement, you're talking about the movement of moisture. I am always ready to respect such attentive people))
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