A "breathing" frame house

[baltazar]

A disease of a plastic bag of the people born from a stupidity and a dullness. We are used to the fact that a frame house "breathes" through the gap between the crowns, and the apartment - through cracks in the windows, but we can’t understand these simple things. And we decide that everything breathes through the walls. Then begins - set in the apartment windows, cutting the gap - "oh, stuffy".
A log cabin was insulated outside - "it stopped breathing", the wool is to blame, it is "locked up the wood". No, I basically do not argue. If we are talking exclusively about the humidity, but not about the fresh air. And this is a big difference between the demand (and an output) of ventilation in a frame house or a "sealed" wooden house, which does not blow through the microcracks in the joints. I personally think not.

[expert]

In general, the role of ventilation, I did not underestimate as I study it myself. And I saw a wooden hut, and obviously with the excess moisture, the pillow was wet when you sleep in a house. And contrary, for some reason, a stuffy nose lost, I recalled the in the first case a hut was trimmed inside, while the second one was simply whitewashed. And I absolutely agree that the ventilation of wooden houses is a pure infiltration of air through the seal and through the cracks. A ventilation of this simple and a complex issue at the same time, an active ventilation meant by a still working system, which must be understood and is sometimes maintained, and the Russian people are lazy in terms of knowledge.

[Summer]

- A keyword is without a ventilation. Of course, if you stuffed the whole house with guests, you will not only increase the cost of ventilation, but also the cost of electricity, water, gas and food. In the "breathing" wooden house stuffed with people, will also be stifling because the air exchange rate would be violated.

[buldozer]

A coefficient of the air permeability across the grain of pine wood (a sapwood, a radial sawing) is 3.6 * 10-5 m3 * Pa * m It’s so little. But not in our climate in winter of excess moisture. Just NO. A moisture in homes does not exceed 30%, or even less. On the other hand, you want to put humidifiers. And while the concentration of a carbon dioxide volume of ventilation, as a rule, even up to half of the norm does not hold. Smart vapor barriers are not there because of fear of the effect of "plastic bag", but because of the use of air conditioners in the summer when the humidity in the air on the order of magnitude is greater than in winter, and it is being chased outside-in. Again, in our climate it is not particularly relevant.

[bill]

- I am speaking about the water vapor permeability, but not about the breathability. And in the bag without a ventilation there is a humidity up 22 - 24 degrees, it is not a problem. As a winter air has a low absolute humidity of the well-known case, but it is on the street. An effective ventilation provides the reduction in humidity, a vapor permeable construction also may lower the humidity, an air exchange. How much is needed, and in this issue. At what is the airflow ventilation not up to the normal concentration of a carbon dioxide? I read the supplement, what kind of a vapor barrier you will put in a frame house? The insulation is an ecowool.

[Summer]

For a permanent residence - the usual vapor barrier is quite a normal solution, still at least ventilation in bathrooms and kitchen needs. But in winter dachas a "smart" vapor barrier is better. We love to "take care" a heath and we didn’t air out the house. When it starts to cool, a condensing moisture from the air settles on everything. And here is the lack of any ventilation, it is necessary to bring the water from the home.

[Summer]

You wrote about a low moisture content. I didn’t consider a carbon dioxide, but it is so great because of a carbon dioxide gas, I'm writing about that and that maybe what I'm not quite sure, the half of air entrainment is necessary for the moisture, and if there is a constructive work on the reduction of moisture maybe the air exchange can be reduced without the loss of a comfort living. As I study a ventilation, I can say that a small inlet system significantly improves the air, drawing in the bathrooms, etc. they are working much more efficiently and can remain passive.

[baltazar]

This is understandable, but you opposed my phrase to another. What is it? I do not know what to answer. An excessive moisture in a wooden house can be due to the high moisture content of wood, and a high humidity in the cooling frame houses - for another reason, just the cooling air condenses out of excess moisture. And all of this has nothing to do with the usual situation of a permanent residence in a frame house, where there is a problem of a dry air

[constructor]

I agree that the "breathing" constructs are possible. The only question is a "value for money".
If you like the design of the "breathing" walls, and its creation is not pulling your pocket, then why not.
But I really understand this issue to blow up a universal scale, when the people they go to the winds, inventing a mixed solution, just to get rid of the medieval mind chilling a vapor barrier. Perhaps, the root in the fact that we have a general idea of a poor ventilation. And when it comes to talking about, why it is considered that the ventilation should be provided exclusively by means of costly forced, forced an exhaust system, even with a recovery ...

[bill]

The essence of the issue raised by me, a reduction in operating costs for a ventilation, 2 so that the constructive will not hurt by the penetration of moisture. For a ventilation I can say that the small cottages are not a space to put recuperators, it is neither economically nor practically.

[buldozer]

What will you consider? How much the fresh air you need as not to die or not to feel uncomfortable? All counted, there are minimum standards for a ventilation in order to achieve a comfortable stay of the person in the room, under which the humidity goes away into the background, it will moisturize and more. Rates depend on the physical load of 20 cubic meters in the nose when at rest (a sleep) and above.
P.S: And why do you think that a heat exchanger is something not expensive in general?. Alaska exchangers will certainly expensive, but they have an amount for a family of 4 five persona and even more.

[bill]

Consider the air content, rooms are different from a "breathable" construction and a “bag”, there is a difference, or whether it is possible, based on which set standards for exchange, it is possible to overestimate its just trouble-free in all aspects of climate. The recuperator is clearly more expensive than just a supply installation, as well as its installation, the energy of heat in the exhaust air is small, can take only a dressing or a general dilution air, a contaminated kitchen air for a heat exchanger will not go. In a small house can get away with only a toilet and the hood in the kitchen, the total volume of extraction is usually enough. Heat exchangers are prone to frostbite. Will be repaid in fifty years. This is all from experience, so it makes sense to speak only of a small mounted ventilation system. I am a supporter of this position in terms of ventilation for small houses.

[bill]

I have read about the air for a carbon dioxide, figures are all right, but do not take into account a time that a well-organized ventilation has a displacing nature in the sense that the air of a carbon dioxide has increased will be replaced in the hallway, and then in the exhaust duct and the reality increased concentration will be extremely low in practice.

[buldozer]

What you thought is rrelevant for the ventilation. This figure will be more useful to astronauts and divers. You counted how much clean air is needed for a person per hour. That is to say, as if the person breathes in one room, and breathes out in another room.
Yes, I'm not against what is considered for CO2, and scientific computations are needed, but read my last post, these calculations do not consider that a person is at some specific point in a room, and does not occupy all the space at the same time, the air moves from point A to point B, between which there is a person. At this point I wanna say that, and 20 m3 per one nose, and sometimes for two will suffice, if two people are close by. The phenomenon of migration is evident in this regard. And the air through the walls does not take into account, and not even interested in them.

[Summer]

Actually, I did not say that a breathing constructive is necessarily expensive. He just is not always straightforward and can pull themselves what is more expensive or complex solutions, in comparison with "standard".
The same ecowool, given into account that it in a good vertical montirut only "trained people" – are not the cheapest insulation. Features of its installation will also impose restrictions on materials or a technology. I would not risk such as to put it without a vapor barrier inside and outside the house as a permanent residence. A diagonal inch single - for me it is not technologically in terms of speed and ease of installation ... In short there are many questions.

[bill]

I just cited as an option for a comparison, is often used for a software flow in the "low-cost systems", and a heat exchanger Electrolux, its old price from over 25 000 rubles 200cub/hour (the price of unit) + ducts + a throttle + a lattice + a need of settings for 3 - 4 people a permanent residence system can cost anywhere from 30 000 to 40 000, which is quite provide an adequate ventilation and a cleaning of the incoming air with a heat recovery (50%, even in the winter mode, it is not bad IMHO).

[baltazar]

You do not see it because it is not. This is about how you felt a ventilation in the air flow rate per person. The air that the people breathe out, does not escape rapidly upwards. It leisurely mixed with a supply air, a man by his movements is still active in this work, and only then just slowly moves to the hood, giving way to breathe is everybody else. I'm sure at this point there are relevant studies, so we believe that without your flourishes.
You said that even in the institutions believe so ... So, they say, and you just reasoning here, without a proof, to convince it. It is unclear what.
What about a displacement ventilation, as I understand it, the type of wooden house, so the thought of "breathing" walls. And in a frame that is impossible, even in the "breathing" house. But I’am lying. There were the people who bubbled a vapor barrier in the wind. Do you need a breathable house? Well, then, to learn from experience, do not put outside the wind insulation. Why it should be? In the furnace it together with a vapor barrier. Do not give it to your house to "breathe".
You say that "breathable" walls you are not interested in, but now you are speaking about their moisture permeability. Which is also too small compared with the ventilation. I do not want to consider anything. Well, with the result that you want?
YOU CAN! In our climate you can install a ventilation! We therefore too dry in winter!. This was once told, without all this debate about the effect of the mythical "plastic bag".

[buldozer]

you can safely discuss the details, without seeking fools. You wrote about high prices at the last page, but oh god! let’s go further. A supply installation is quite possible to collect yourself and I can not say as a scrap to tell about it, if necessary, and will make sense. A stacking technology, well, it's still not reading the forum and I saw how, in principle, all people with a dignity were obtained without the super-technology. But how long the ecowool in breathing embodiment is held in the wall without sagging, I think really the question of how to improve a fire safety and the issue outside of that log house. As for the low-tech, it has the better water vapor permeability compared to the OSB.
Leave the little jokes, I figured out in five minutes what you said and everything was read and counted, but me, too, I can write, and you are strongly waving your arms? "Architects" are generally the most intelligent people whom I just adore. You don’t want to understand what I say or ... Well, I do not know.
About the displacement ventilation, again, neither of which this did not mean, as you wrote.
Also you can read carefully the movement of air in the room.

[bill]

I would like to express a thought that has arisen on the basis of those sorts of pies, membranes, gaps, etc.:
The wise man not only learns the necessary knowledge, but also cuts unnecessary.
That is, if you do a wall structure of a certain mature technology (North American and Scandinavian, from the recommendations of manufacturers of materials, etc.), using high quality materials at the same time, the in-depth knowledge in all kinds of calculations have never needed, and the end result will most likely better than for-yourself.
And in Russian, why do you reinvent the wheel if it has been invented a long time ago?

[baltazar]

I live in Irkutsk, for the acceptable price of 5,000 cubic, a square price is 125 rubles, against two times larger than that of OSB, something like this. Bother with this board is possible, if still pursue "water penetrable" design (this is for those who do not understand again). Good intentions of the scientists who carried out calculation of air, well, I am just funny to read, you sit there at your computer, and you have 60 cubes of fresh air, then you are sure of this?