A "breathing" frame house

[Summer]

Yes, everything is fine! Never mind.
I just really do not know what you mean.
I perfectly understand your idea that the exhaled air goes away from the tenants in the exhaust ventilation almost mingling with the fresh supply air, and the necessary volumes can score. But in reality it is not. It is ideal to aspire to. But as every ideal, it is unattainable in practice. The polluted air is mixed with any supply air. In addition to a variety of convective flows is more diffuse. Here's your room 2 x 2, it is possible and achievable, where you're sitting at a table in the way of a fresh air and exhaust you behind your back. In addition to the standards of the volume, there are also standards for a multiplicity. If you still can find in five minutes, here and figure out what will be the concentration of CO2 in a small room with no ventilation 2 x 2 let in 3 hours, and the same thing with some ventilation of their choice. And so you will tell us. It will be very clear, why do you need a ventilation?
But what do you mean as a “breathing log house”? And a theme is so called.

[buldozer]

A medicine is also a science, too, but the people get sick and die. I will speak out of practice, there were examples of excessive air changes for the people who have mounted a ventilation, resulting in a ventilation rate in the first set, and we were asked to do something, because it was still a lot. Well, I am just sure a hundred percent in my words. I can scatter the example of any apartment, no one would not be practical to share what bill wrote, and in the apartment where he lived. Yes, I'm the first for the ventilation and all I can say about it. And in cottages, there is a high probability that such an exchange will be maximum, and the people will enjoy the first two of five rates.
To count the CO2, well, I am really lazy, I'm sorry too. About frame house I can say, the fruit of my next question, let's just assume the exchange of air is not like you ask, two variants of the walls with the insulation and without, again, maybe it's an indirect thing, microclimate will be the same or not?
And the CO2 is mixed with the air, I agree, but certainly not at all. I just wanted to show, we breathed in a cube, but come 20, well, do not shatter as soon as the CO2 around the room, and will come out a total weight of the hood, this complex process of a gas mixing, and even scientists estimate probably plus or minus tarpaulin boots, and believe me they will do.

[baltazar]

In these examples showed, in some cases we use a simple calculation of a ventilation multiplicity, in which we take into account the number of people and the amount of CO2, and it is a common practice. And as for the nano - wall or not, I just like the example of the jacket to explain that, in principle, no wonder why there are vapor-permeable walls, but a feasibility can be discussed. So, none is arguing with you! All just say that it is a sufficient ventilation , as in ordinary apartments. And there will not be an excess moisture. There are many examples of framed houses. No small rooms with a bunch of tenants, and normal houses, well, at least for 60-70 cubic meters per tenant.

[buldozer]

We have:
1) The need for ventilation in the amount of N
2) The amount of N consists of two components - a fresh air Y + a humidity X, we have N = Y + X
You are talking about the fact that:
- If you make the walls "breathing", the component - X decreases, hence the need for ventilation will be N = Y, or, well, N = Y + X / z where X / z - at the expense of reduced component of humidity.
- It turns out that the "breathing" walls allow us to reduce the need for ventilation, and thus, for example to save heat.
You are also speaking about something else, that component of Y (the need for the fresh air), much higher than X. Therefore, in our N = Y + X - the value of X is not really high enough to bother "breathing log houses".
That something like this I understand the situation.

[Summer]

None is arguing with you!! Everybody just says that it is sufficient an ordinary ventilation, as in ordinary apartments. And there will not be an excess of moisture. There are many examples of this fact in frame houses. No small rooms with a bunch of tenants, but normal houses, well, at least for 60-70 cubic meters in the tenant. So, "not quite" or a "total weight"? This is almost the extreme notion.
That is what, in your opinion, should be the air speed that the person could feel comfortable, and did not feel the wind on a face, especially as the supply air is cold in winter? And even breathing a cold air is unpleasant, and for this purpose the radiators are set under the windows.

[bill]

Let me try to paraphrase, as I understand you, and you will confirm or will refute.
We have:
1) The need for ventilation in the amount of N.
2) The amount of N consists of two components - the fresh air Y + a humidity X, and we have N = Y + X.
You are talking about the fact that:
- If you make the walls "breathing”, so, the component - X decreases, hence the need for ventilation is N = Y, or, well, N = Y + X / z, where X / z - the reduced component of humidity at the expense of walls.
- It turns out that the "breathing" walls allow us to reduce the need for ventilation, and thus, for example to save a heat.
You are also talking about something else, that the component of Y (the need for the fresh air) is much higher than X. Therefore, in our N = Y + X - the value of X is not really high enough to bother "breathing pies".
That something like this I understand the situation.

[buldozer]

Our life gradually throws the proof for two assumptions, selected by me. Back in 2007, my friend and I, we went in the building of a "breathing log house" with a cellulose insulation without a vapor barrier. But materials of walls, a heating and a ventilation were different.
I have a log wall from the inside out:
- A gypsum in the profile;
- An isoplate 25 mm;
- A frame 145 mm with an ecowool;
- An isoplate 25 mm;
- A ventframe (a magnesium plus a 'wet front' of 30 mm foam).
The heating was air with the forced ventilation and the air conditioning. The house is dry, the air-conditioning is rare, but we included (very large windows from floor to ceiling on the first floor).
My comrade made:
- A gypsum;
- Even a plaster;
- A frame 145 mm with an ecowool;
- OSB 12 mm;
- a “wet front" directly to OSB with 50 mm of a basalt wool.
The heating – the heated floor on a ground floor, on the second floor - radiators, and I forgot a ventilation, something was already done in the course of final finishing. For two years he has complained of an excessive moisture, even in winter, in summer from a dampness - the multitude of flies and an unbearable heat is in the house.
The last three days were very indicative in the gas flow rate (we are now down to - 30 at night). As I have the same heated area (250 square meters) with my tremendous windows, the gas flow rate up to 3 days is 88 cubic meters, and my friend has 135 cubes (he has ordinary windows)!

[baltazar]

It turns out that you have a house with an insulation, and without a ventilation it is virtually incapable of a self-regulation humidity which is indoor, and it is an important component of a house microclimate. Yes, I understand, the other fear, the fear of "breathing" walls, but more of a constructive experience for myself, as I understand. A powerful ventilation solves problems of home with the insulation, but if it was broken ...

[buldozer]

Your examples are not the examples of "breathing" and not "breathing" frame house but the examples of correct and incorrect log houses. Remember, a few years ago I told almost in the same topic, that that fellow would have troubles in three years. That's what happens. He has a wet ecowool. Americans showed it many years ago, and in a mild climate. Hence, a dampness and an increased consumption of gas. The same pie has another forum mate but it is in a good condition. The difference is a purpose – a permanent residence or a winter cottage, there is a little moisture accumulating in winter, and it has time to dry during the summer.
If this guy put a vapor barrier, and made just a normal ventilation, there would not be any problems. Someone said that they had in Canada a forced ventilation, but a few people used it. No problem of a "plastic bag", they do not even know. It is only in our head, but no one really knows what it is - to live in a normal frame house.

[expert]

Without a ventilation you will not be able to create a climate, if you do not have the walls "slot-ventilated." As soon as we have a ventilation, even not so powerful, but at least some kind of, the question of a "self-regulation humidity" is no longer relevant.

[bill]

Everything was very actively discussed a few years ago, everyone thought, counted, and studied literature. It was then the fear of many of the vapor barrier. Now, everybody is calmed down for a long time, realized that this problem was not worth a damn, and this theme was all pretty bored. Sometimes lazy conversations. A beginner came with its traditional problems and new for only him, and tries to prove to everyone that there is a great solution - a"breathing" frame house. Yes that is. It's called as a "Finnish frame house". It is not a solution to the problem of ventilation, which the Finns also have, as a purely solution to technological problems - less risk of damage to vapor barrier, which in cold climates can quickly manifest itself in the form of water from the wall. It is easier to establish a more idiot-proof construction. That's it!

[baltazar]

Imagine, a mouse or an insect damaged a vapor barrier, and an electricity was gone or burned out a fan. So, it is impossible to use the house, oh?
Then you need to provide for advance an easy removal of internal linings, take care of replacement parts for the ventilation system and be sure to equip a sufficiently powerful and a long-playing backup power.

[buldozer]

From the description to this material: Between two layers of a cardboard there is a HDPF – a foil used as a vapor barrier, as well as mesh-based synthetic fiber, gives a high strength to the material. On the home page announced "a unique Finnish technology". In my opinion, it was a very wise decision. By the way, this principle can be done by conventional materials, not necessarily of a thin laminated veneer lumber, which we can’t find here. Imagine a war! And the rocket goes into the house, and there is no more a vapor barrier! And you can’t use the house.
Do you really think that a frame house left in a day, two or three without a ventilation will kill us?
About the fact that the ventilation does not necessarily have to be enforced – I am generally silent. The Finns definitely must learn us to live without an undue panic and fantasies.

[expert]

This technology is called Ekorex and was patented by the Finns under that name. Something like that I made during the construction of my house six years ago. But not entirely so. The Finns have a thick tree outside, but I got it inside. And the heater is not an ecowool, but also it is not afraid to a dew point. The basic concept of wall construction is actually the same.

[buldozer]

A small digression, I'm here support a frame of technology and their promotion, even, well, because you can really find their economic and practical feasibility, and I do not claim that I have discovered "breathing" frame houses, just a life observation (jackets, shoes with membranes, etc., where the moisture beautifully displayed), re-reading the forum about the use of a cellulose fiber as a heater, which stubbornly refuses a vapor barrier, but this can be a damn not worth it in relation to the frame construction. But questions arise for a simple reason that there is a forum with thousands of pages, but conclusions do not come. And a denominator or a set of recommendations are not displayed in a separate spot.
Someone wrote, "Here you are, prove that the climate will be uneven, how much unequal if you really so sure". I'm not sure, but I am trying to figure out a theoretical and a practical experience of specialists and the people who have already operated houses with or without insulation. About the cold supply air, I quite understand about the wind on your face. What are you talking about?
You understand me perfectly, and your opinion as an expert, I realized that the value of X can be neglected. Is it right? With regard to the ventilation, I have not written that it could be only enforced, even those who choose what you want. But their recommendations, I do not refuse, for the reasons of a fire safety!
And in this point I am sure by my occupation.
You wrote "just no one really knows what it is to live in a normal frame house", so you explained why there are questions.
If you can ,please, answer:
1. A ventilation fence is better than a plaster on the OSB, for example or not?
2. Fibrolite plates are better than the OSB panels as a cladding to the ventilation fence or not?
3. It is better just to use a drywall inside the house without additional isoplate ot not?
4. What is better one or two layers of a gypsum board?

[bill]

I do not understand about the facade (a 'wet front' of 30 mm. foam). And according to the frame outside, we don’t have isoplate or greenboards, a smelly OSB, a plywood and boards ... In China they produce fibrolite plates, but it is almost necessary to go to China.

[buldozer]

Moreover, a moisture transfer through the "breathing" structure increases its thermal conductivity. Therefore, in various passive and super-energy efficient homes walls deliberately are not vapor penetrable to ensure their control of heat and air exchange.

[Summer]

Here's a note in my life, I does not convince anyone, just for the information. My fried has a blanket trophy, his grandfather brought back from the First World War. A duvet like a duvet, so a lot of fluff in a pillow, it is so light. We went on a journey in our truck, I was tired of the road, I went to sleep. It was -7 degrees. I crawled under it with my nose, and a minute later the body was spreading the grace of heat, a couple of hours it was already -15, and I was sleeping peacefully. So, I breathed, and the moisture from the body was still, well, it was a loss of heat, etc. I am still amazed.

[bill]

For these questions there are no right answers. Because they are all from a series of "what color is better - blue or green". It is impossible to answer this question abstractly, without reference to the context. You should look for a specific case.
For the same reason we do not have anything for all sorts of log houses. Because there is no single solution, we have right principles. And they can be implemented in different ways. Which option is better for someone is a private affair. It depends on your preferences, features, “cockroaches” in your mind. Then it is quite specific, such an option: inside the house, a drywall (a waterproof or not, a layer or two), a vapor barrier.
A wooden frame with the ecowool, a fibrolite plate (as it is more resistant to fire, if you'll bring from China, I find, a windscreen (any), a ventilation fence, a facade (I don’t determine, which may be a siding, but I wanna something denser). In general, what would you do?

[buldozer]

Do not read forums, you must read a pilot study, which is at the same forum. But only it was been a few years ago. Now everybody understands it. No one will find this research again. A vapor barrier is required, at least not as a complete vapor barrier, but as a vapor barrier restricting. But it depends on a particular log house. The Finns have experimentally determined that in order to avoid an accumulation of moisture in the wall of a water vapor resistance of the inner layer must be higher than the outer layer in 5 times. But it is in Finland, where the climate is milder than ours. In our climate, this difference must be at least 10 times (for the middle band), somewhere in Siberia, and even more. You can apply any option, not contrary to these conditions. This choice will be determined by quite different criteria. Yes, I am indirectly trying to get you to understand that your theory of a directional movement of dirty air is wrong, since you do not understand the forehead. About the fact that to be acceptable with a respect to temperature, the air must be heated or must be mixed.
The most common version of radiators just picks up a clean supply air from windows above, what is used by the air from a human. I did not ask in vain about the latch of the air speed. It is not high enough to change a whole atmosphere. So, your version 2 cubes of a fresh air per hour per person is good on the face, with an exhalation in the opposite direction. That is registered in the norms and codes, it can be valid only for the apartments with modern double glass windows, but there the normal people specially organize a ventilation. But in ordinary apartments a volume of ventilation is very good. It is very easy to determine the moisture, and it is this volume can be calculated quite accurately. An ecowool doesn’t burn. As a mineral binder there are waste products.