A "breathing" frame house

[buldozer]

I see only one advantage of plastic windows: we do not have to paint them!!.

[constructor]

I do not understand the reasons for a joy. Modern building codes (SniP) 23-02-2003, didn’t change the requirements for the air permeability of the walls. i.e, walls may be permeable for the air.
It is likely the contrary. The purpose of marketing is to get to buy lots of expensive films and various antiseptics, and the substrate pads, adhesive tapes, metallic heaters with an infrared reflection, valves, an automatic control, and in addition, the ionizers, humidifiers, dehumidifiers, etc. . Of course, everything will work only if it is installed by authorized service not cheap,g that would require an additional wiring and heaps of energy. Do you want the "breathing walls"?. Are you crazy??!. We will earn money on it!.
a) You are wrong. In principle, in the definition.
b) The question "Why?" disappears.
It is not a question. You can write a model to start processing on a supercomputer in IVVIS (CSA), It is not a problem to get it.
Well, this is too much.
There is not a question!!.

[bill]

I fully support you!.
There are no generic materials. Chemical and plastic plates are perfect for sandwich panels of hangars, the insulation of old buildings, etc. But why do they so actively "push" to a market of new low-rise housing?.
Instead of replacing the "problem" of materials (a rock wool, a foam, OSB, etc.) an entire industry was created (films, filters, etc.) to reduce their "problematic."

[baltazar]

Well, so what is in the dry residue?.
According to the conservatives it is clear - this is nonsense.
According to the remaining leaves "breathing walls" allow:

1) to maintain a humidity in the microclimate.
2) to have in the absence of oxygen (or less necessary), or a supply air ventilation etc.
3) to minimize a heat loss in the "refreshment of air" in comparison with an open window.
So, what do you think about it?.

[baltazar]

Some comments:
the walls themselves will not add a moisture. Likely because of the rare airing (for example, 3 times a day, not 4) it will be able to keep the relative humidity at an acceptable level.
But not only walls could be "breathing", but the upper floor. Finns have 1-storey walls of frame house that are trimmed with a vapor barrier, but the ceiling is "open" for a vapor. The climate in the house is excellent.
And so, in general, I agree.

[bill]

Then back to our question - OSB, and an ecowool and breathing walls. OSB 9 mm without slots + 150 mm of ecowool + kraft paper + the lining of walls, with no vapor barrier. A ceiling – an ecowool + kraft paper lining. A floor – a mesh + a windscreen + + an ecowool + a kraft paper + floor boards. i.e. the moisture-permeable floors, the walls are moisture-permeable for convenience... Whether an excess moisture will be in the walls?. Or the excess moisture will escape through the ceiling?.

[Summer]

Can I have a small of 3-4mm or do I need a normal of 22 mm?.
In my opinion, the Finns used a forced-air heating system with a heat recovery, which in conjunction with the "vapor-permeable" ceiling and provides a good climate. Or am I mistaken?.

[buldozer]

I will not tell you from entire Odessa" ...
I can have stereotype in both directions, I am too lazy to get out of my pocket the numbers. There are such houses, and without a satisfactory. But I will not to advice you to do so.
The idea of "contra" is clear - if the number of incoming moisture in the wall will exceed the steady number of evaporated, it will be bad.
The idea of "pro": the vapor entering into a wall will condensate in the area of the dew point and will be absorbed by the cellulose fibers. Due to a capillary transfer the moisture will try to uniformly distributed throughout the volume of insulation, falling into the inner layers of batten. From there, it will evaporate again into the air as the temperature is close to a room temperature and the density of water vapor is far from a saturated. More the process is intense, the larger area of the walls and a temperature drop...
For a quantitative evaluation it is necessary to know the rate of water evaporation from the capillaries and its dependence on a temperature and a vapor pressure.
The Finns have a lot of interesting things.
They may have a central forced-air heating with a long-running fire place, and a water heating on the floor, or an infrared radiation.
The Finns make sometimes the windows in the corner of the house - the coldest place, and put the radiators - thus combining two cold points, the angle and the window at a clip.
It should be noted that they are big fellows in the field of creativity and, most importantly, in order to implement, test and bring the results to a society. We have a lot of ideas, but it is worse with their verification).

[bill]

Oh, and I probably got into the discussion.
The only thing that I found - this is your "mega"-account, "at a pressure of 0.1 MPa," when you got an air ventilation 32 times a day. However at 0.1 MPa inside the home should be a vacuum, but you are not confused then.
So, to your other account, which is already "four times a day" I will happy to looked at. As a particular interest, where did you take a pressure difference, and through which ends there is the air, and where it comes out.
Theoretically, it is a quite probable occurrence.
It would be also good to try to make a quantitative assessment. Although it will be complicated ..
When you have a properly warmed house, there will be no condensation on the film, because the temperature of the film is almost the same as in the room.
But if there is no film, then the vapor will go further into the wall, and reaches the place where the temperature is much lower (a dew point), and the condensate will drop there. And there will be a mold, etc.
But all the same building codes and requirements for a breathability as "no more", i.e consider the air permeability as a minus, rather than a plus.
The fact is:
The house, built in accordance with all rules and regulations, a complete air exchange only through the wall can not be carried out.
The PROOF.
With this option, be careful. As a minimum, we need a good ventilation of the attic. And it will be like in " the condensate will be pouring on the head":
Well, in general, no one has been canceled the dew point. The vapor will condense because of the top layer of a Cellulose Fibre? .In general, it is not almost clear.

[constructor]

1. It is likely, the building codes distinguish that is (from its point of view), a wall, and that is just a "hole"
2. In the building codes distinguish this figure is given without excluding a specific material that is not quite correct, but rather a "thick" wall with a limited breathability will work as an analog of the heat exchanger.

[Summer]

And do you also think that in the same section of the wall the inner air can go outside and the outer air can go inside?.
And what kind of physical strength makes these 2 streams move in opposite directions?.

[bill]

NO! I believe that:
1. The outer air slowly passed through the wall becomes warm.
2. The uniform flow of air through the wall, having a large surface area is much more comfortable than the wind blowing from the fan or vents. And less they will be used - more it will be comfortable.

[buldozer]

Your "NO" very pleased me.
I note only that "the uniform flow of air through the wall" is only possible with a good ventilation, by the way which may play a role a wood stove pipe.
Well, the wall must be highly breathable, such as a log-house with a total gap between the logs a half of kilometer.
And for example, a frame with an airtight membrane in this case did not ride at all.
Well, what about comfort, there are other opinions. For example, a controlled flow of air through the specials air-supply valves located in the area of the heaters but it will be more comfortable than the uncontrolled through the walls.

[baltazar]

But this is unlikely. There is no need to control what runs itself automatically. Like a wool coat, which helps to keep a heat in the cold without the risk of sweating. Similarly, a fur of the animal works. Less reason to create some things at the subsequent operation, better to live in it.

[buldozer]

- what cloth a man is less comfortable in?. In a synthetics, which is poorly breathable. And it's not the ambient temperature. Of course, the heated air will tend upwards, and the maximum condensate falls under the roof. If a forced ventilation does’nt solve the problem. But the lining does not help. Neither the removal of excessive moisture, or to improve the quality of air inside the house. That I wanted to say to the author of that issue.

[Summer]

The inlet valve can be closed when there is no need for a ventilation, but with a " blowing" wall such focus does not pass, and as a consequence – an over-heating is required to compensate a heat loss.

[constructor]

Good afternoon, all.
I had a big smile, but I have one question for you. Do wear a wool coat all year round?. After all, it automatically heats and ventilates your. Animals are changing the fur twice a year, let's not take them as an uneconomical example.

I fully agree with bill.
The BASIC air through the building fences is a bullshit. Often we hear this statement at trade shows such as "I have a breathing house, and everything will be OK, do not sing me a song about the ventilation". I recall different movies in these cases, when the people are carried by a contraband in plywood boxes. Even the directors and writers, far from the building, are smart enough to saw the holes in the plywood, so the actor does not suffocate. Why the customer does not like himself, that he listens to all of these partial pressures, and other physics. But to breathe only through the walls will not be necessary.

I agree that the part of the air enters, but it's like with the skin of humans. Yes, part of the oxygen supplied (I do not remember the percentage), butit is not necessary for a life. Why does the main part is taken through of the deflector, located on the muzzle face.

A breathable cladding is only needed to remove the moisture from itself that it will be dry and comfortable, but not a family of the owner of that construction. I am surprised by that combination of the concepts of ventilation and air permeability of the walls (ceilings). Why does nobody combine the water with a rainwater sewerage?. Why not?. To calculate a demand, a rainfall, an area and an intensity of evaporation and that’s all. Everyone is happy, and less money is needed. I apologize for the sarcasm, I am preparing for the exhibitions, but there it is needed. Regards, constructor.

[Summer]

An uncontrolled does not mean automatic. This means the ventilation comes through the walls (the drafts run through the cracks, if we call a spade a spade) it behaves itself. And the wind blew through the wall and the the air came and it became cold.

[bill]

It doesn’t pain in any case, if you know the measure.
Excuse me, but after the long winter hollidays (the head didn’t hurt that time), the body refuses to make new experiments.
Oh!. For the money it would require a reliance of one house, you can build a couple of villages.
Here is the correct answer. Thank you.

[constructor]

I made a curious observation.
1) First, someone said that "breathing walls" were a nonsense invented by marketers.
2) Then bill said that marketers just don’t really need to sell the ventilation system, films, etc.
3) Then tightened "practitioners" that are at shows and in the fight against well-read customers (that is in marketing) - are ready to prove that the "breathing walls" are the nonsense.
A full circle?
In general, summer said
"Rather, due to the rare airing (for example, 3 times a day, not 4."
So far as I understand it, a talk about what "breathing walls" will FULLY replace the ventilation / the airing is not being.
And by the way, do not compare a house and a plywood box. The volumes are somewhat different first, and secondly, in the home there is rarely a few people at the same time for a long time. At the time until the main population is at work - a process is going on.